USA Torture Memos Published

[Azrael]

Or how about the terrorist suspect knowing that time is of the essence, and that any information he gives will be acted upon.

He then purposely gives false information to mislead the intelligence services, ensuring that the terrorist attack is successful.

Exactly.

In investigative terms, torture is a tactic of desperation, an admission that all other routes of inquiry are lost. Mr Terrorist will know this, and is, let's remember, a fanatic. He could easily send the police/army/FBI on a wild goose chase. I wouldn't put it beyond some groups to purposely set-up an operative with false information for capture. While Mr Patsy (truthfully) tells what he knows, and the police follow it up: boom.

This has nothing to do with anti-Americanism, of course. Torture is a terror tactic any government can fall prey to, as our disgraceful behaviour in Northern Ireland testifies.

 

[Rainingstairs]

Do me a favour, we spend as much vitriol and hatred on our own 'powers that be' as we do yours.

Don't fall into the trap of thinking that condemning the actions of american government or military equate to hating the USA.

fair. so. Urban doesn't hate the big fat stupid Americans?

 

[Dillinger4]

fair. so. Urban doesn't hate the big fat stupid Americans?

*yawn*

 

[Rainingstairs]

*yawn*

bloody english wanker

 

[Jeff Robinson]

The "ticking bomb scenario" is a legitimising myth. It's a repellent university thought-exercise tailored to manipulate students into justifying atrocities, and should be banned in any reputable philosophy department.

It shouldn't be banned, it should be debated. I studied the "ticking bomb scenario" and the counter arguments when I was at uni and nothing could have revealed its intellectual fraudulence better than that. Superficially it's a very seductive argument and it makes its way into popular culture via shows like 24 and the column's of populist right wing pundits. In the US its not an uncommon position to take in the mainstream media (though it's thankfully been somewhat sidelined since the last presidential race). I remember reading a yank poll after Obama announced he was closing down Guantanamo Bay - only 30% thought it was the right decision, 40% opposed and the remainder were unsure (i.e more Americans support torture than oppose it). Depressing shit from the land of the free.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

bloody english wanker

Thick Yank Tosser. Run along. it's time for your next bowl of corn syrup.

 

[DotCommunist]

fair. so. Urban doesn't hate the big fat stupid Americans?

Can't speak for 'urban' but in the main no, there isn't lots of hate for americans as a people. Mockery, sometimes paternalistically tinged aloof sweeping generalisations yes. I do that myself sometimes.

However, the curse of being the power on the world stage means that everyone fucking hates you

The irony is that the USA is was the creation of Europs less savoury elements

/gross generalising

 

[Rainingstairs]

Thick Yank Tosser. Run along. it's time for your next bowl of corn syrup.

actually. nevermind. So. I rest my point

 

[Jeff Robinson]

lol. congrats. you're the first person I will put on ignore!

It's what your dumb ass nation's been doing with world opinion for the last 60 years so why brake the habit of a life time?

 

[Rainingstairs]

The irony is that the USA is was the creation of Europs less savoury elements

/gross generalising

exactly! that's why as a people we lack the concept of posh. thank god.

 

[Dillinger4]

What are your opinion's on torture?

 

[Rainingstairs]

Obviously, torture should be eradicated because it's immoral and horrible. Question: where do we bring these people whom were it's prisoners? Their countries surely don't want them. Do they go through the American legal system? and charge them with what? wasn't that the whole point of having a "secret prison"? was because there wasn't anything to "charge" them with? bloody mess.

 

[DotCommunist]

exactly! that's why as a people we lack the concept of posh. thank god.

Well, I shouldn't crow to much on that one given that your class structure fractures along racial lines. 'Poor? We was white niggers'

that says a fair bit about how the american society structures itself.

 

[Rainingstairs]

Well, I shouldn't crow to much on that one given that your class structure fractures along racial lines. 'Poor? We was white niggers'

that says a fair bit about how the american society structures itself.

yes unfortunately but that is not uncommon. but there is upward mobility. and your accent will never define your worth.

 

[Dillinger4]

yes unfortunately but that is not uncommon. but there is upward mobility. and your accent will never define your worth.

You are kidding yourself.

 

[Blagsta]

Obviously, torture should be eradicated because it's immoral and horrible. Question: where do we bring these people whom were it's prisoners? Their countries surely don't want them. Do they go through the American legal system? and charge them with what? wasn't that the whole point of having a "secret prison"? was because there wasn't anything to "charge" them with? bloody mess.

If there's nothing to charge them with, let them go.

duh

 

[Rainingstairs]

no. plenty of people I know came to the states with nothing more than the clothes on their back and one small suitcase and have managed to live extraordinary lives here. Escaping from persecution or conflict in Iran, India etc. I am not kidding myself! This country is shit in many ways but equally as incredible.

 

[DotCommunist]

yes unfortunately but that is not uncommon. but there is upward mobility. and your accent will never define your worth.

That's the American Dream. And like most dreams, it simply isn't true.

It's the disney myth 'believe in yourself and your dreams will come true'

It's a touching and worthy myth for a a nation, but reality does not reflect it. No more than the euro idea of 'work hard and you'll do well' does.

 

[Rainingstairs]

If there's nothing to charge them with, let them go.

duh

and let them live within US borders? LMFAO!

 

[Rainingstairs]

That's the American Dream. And like most dreams, it simply isn't true.

It's the disney myth 'believe in yourself and your dreams will come true'

It's a touching and worthy myth for a a nation, but reality does not reflect it. No more than the euro idea of 'work hard and you'll do well' does.

I speak from my own experiences. nothing more.

 

[Blagsta]

and let them live within US borders? LMFAO!

If they've done nothing wrong, why not?

 

[Rainingstairs]

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

 

[Rainingstairs]

If they've done nothing wrong, why not?

because they are not American citizens.

 

[Blagsta]

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

because they are not American citizens.

Hmmmmmm

 

[DotCommunist]

I speak from my own experiences. nothing more.

Well I speak from a position of reading the histories, of mine and your country- and my own experiences. The high minded ideals have not translated to real change. Your society is repeating the grossest mistakes of the British Empire all over again and it is painful to watch, especially given the faith and hope the average american puts in Uncle Sam as a good uncle.

It took two of the most ruinous and appalling wars ever to kill the british empire. I just hope the USA doesn't repeat our mistakes so thoroughly (cultural and fiscal hegemony still count as empire-acts btw. )

 

[Rainingstairs]

Well I speak from a position of reading the histories, of mine and your country- and my own experiences. The high minded ideals have not translated to real change. Your society is repeating the grossest mistakes of the British Empire all over again and it is painful to watch, especially given the faith and hope the average american puts in Uncle Sam as a good uncle.

It took two of the most ruinous and appalling wars ever to kill the british empire. I just hope the USA doesn't repeat our mistakes so thoroughly (cultural and fiscal hegemony still count as empire-acts btw. )

well, yes. I have a bachelors degree in history as well lol. I always felt the personal experience to be more telling opposed to theoretical opinion but your right. we are doomed.

It took two world wars to make America the financial power house that it became! what with all production being diverted to the war effort. It's been pissed away by greedy unchecked capitalism.

but the ideas that this country were founded on are still there. and it's still possible.

 

[Rainingstairs]

Ultimately what I am trying to say is that you can't just say "well, it's all just a theoretical dream that sounds pretty" and not expect that self fulfilling prophesy. You have to believe in it then go after it. Which is probably the hardest thing to do consering there are so many people out there so willing to tell you that it's all BS.

 

[Azrael]

wasn't that the whole point of having a "secret prison"? was because there wasn't anything to "charge" them with?

That was the excuse, sure. But perhaps there is enough evidence, and it suited the administration to keep them in a legal black hole and extract information. "Probable cause" isn't the highest standard in the world. If you can get a grand jury to hand down indictments, can't the men be remanded in a federal jail pending trial? That old quote about a grand jury indicting a ham sandwich comes to mind.

If there is no probable cause, and no other country will take them, then the USA is going to have to give them residence. Call it a small consequence of setting up a gulag.

 

[Dillinger4]

.

 

[Rainingstairs]

Hmmmmmm

you still had to sign in at Ellis Island.