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USA Torture Memos Published

Well, if the Brits did it 30-35 years ago in Northern Ireland and the USA did it this past 5 years then that makes everything okay then.
 
Oh the outrage. Seems the Brits do it too, but have learned to be more careful at covering it up.

British army torture tactics are nothing new, says Adams

The first internment swoops, 'Operation Demetrius', saw hundreds of people systematically beaten and forced to run the gauntlet of war dogs, batons and boots. Some were stripped naked and had black hessian bags placed over their heads. These bags kept out all light and extended down over the head to the shoulders.

As the men stood spread–eagled against the wall, their legs were kicked out from under them. They were beaten with batons and fists on the testicles and kidneys and kicked between the legs. Radiators and electric fires were placed under them as they were stretched over benches. Arms were twisted, fingers were twisted, ribs were pummelled, objects were shoved up the anus, they were burned with matches and treated togames of Russian roulette. Some of them were taken up in helicopters and flung out, thinking that they were high in the sky when they were only five or six feet off the ground. All the time they were hooded, handcuffed and subjected to a high–pitched unrelenting noise. This was later described as extra–sensory deprivation. It went on for days.

Some years later I was arrested again, this time with some friends. We were taken to a local RUC barracks on the Springfield Road. There I was taken into a cell and beaten for what seemed to be an endless time. All the people who beat me were in plain clothes. They had English accents.

And although these cases ended up in Europe, and the British government paid thousands in compensation, it didn’t stop the torture and ill–treatment of detainees. It just made the British government and its military and intelligence agencies more careful about how they carried it out and ensured that they changed the laws to protect the torturers and make it very difficult to expose the guilty.
Click to expand...
http://www.irishdemocrat.co.uk/features/ba-torture/
 
It's just fucking wrong. When we did it in Northern Ireland it caused far more problems than it solved in addition to being fucking evil and just totally wrong.

I'm not really a big fan of the death penalty but I'd be seriously tempted to support it for torturers, politicians who approved of torture and medics etc who were complicit in torture.
 
A decade's hard labour should do the trick. Or, using the JSM logic of punishment (is it theft to fine a thief, etc), some quality time alone with a set of thumbscrews.
 
TomUS - Why are you being childish? Does it matter to you who tortures besides the USA Government, does it make it better if other Governments tortured as well?

This really isn't 'my country is better than your country'.
 
Cheney is calling for publishing of memos claiming they got valuable infomation out of terrorists they tortured.
That would really cause problems if it is proved to work.Like most people the idea of torturing someone is repugent ,but, cant really see an effective argument to the" well we stopped an attack because we tortured this man."
 
Cheney's full of shit. Just trying to defuse the issue. Even the Israel's gave up with torture because it didn't give them good intell.
 
I guess if your pretty commited to a cause you can hold out for quite a while to torture.I am sure there lots of other ways to get someone to talk.
 
One of the justifications for torture that is often wheeled out is the '24' defence. That a terrorist needs to be tortured in order to save lives.

Ignoring all of the obvious inherent flaws in this argument, I just read in the newspaper that one man had been waterboarded 84 times.

84.

By all accounts, waterboarding is pretty terrifying. I want to know what the justification is for waterboarding somebody 84 times. What could they possible learn by waterboarding somebody 84 times.

Just to be clear, I don't condone it. Not even slightly. Any torture is wrong, even if it is only done once.

But 84 times. Fuck me.
 
there was a post on arrse about somebody who let himself be water boarded.
yes alcohol was involved :rolleyes:
lasted seconds.
deeply unpleasant one thing 24 hour styled but bollocks fiction
84 days :(
 
London_Calling said:
D4 - read post #28 above.

waterboarded 183 times in a 30-day period.
Click to expand...

I am speechless.

What is the justification for waterboarding - among other torture - somebody 183 times?

Why?

I am not saying there is any justification for torture. There isn't. But some are understandable, even if they are not acceptable.

But what could possibly have been gained from this? What was going on?

Who decided "We have waterboarded him 183 times. Maybe one more and he will crack".

This is one of the most shameful events of our times.
 
Thing is most intel has a time-limit. Once you've had someone banged up for five years and reduced them to a piece of furniture, what do they know that's of any use any more?

Cheney seems to be talking about confessions, which is not the same thing as intel anyway.
 
I have been reading a novel that touches upon the murders of the maquiladora workers in Ciudad Juarez, Mexico. I have also been reading some non-fiction about it, as well.

It has been suggested that the local police are involved, in the actual murders, and in covering them up, and that businessmen, politicians, narcotrafficantes are involved, as well. There is credible evidence to suggest this.

Here is quote from the book I am reading:

No one pays attention to these killings, but the secret of the world is hidden within them.
Click to expand...

And what is that secret?

Corruption.

Well at least part of it, anyway.

I think the secret of our own world is hidden within this torture. That there isn't an extraordinary outcry about this speaks volumes. This is so shameful. It makes me ashamed to be human.
 
Fruitloop said:
Thing is most intel has a time-limit. Once you've had someone banged up for five years and reduced them to a piece of furniture, what do they know that's of any use any more?

Cheney seems to be talking about confessions, which is not the same thing as intel anyway.
Click to expand...

Confessions.

It is a little bit like the inquisition.
 
dylanredefined said:
Like most people the idea of torturing someone is repugent ,but, cant really see an effective argument to the" well we stopped an attack because we tortured this man."
Click to expand...
How about ends don't justify means, and some acts are inherently wrong? Utilitarianism isn't my thing at all.

If they're seeking to justify torture under the common law rule of necessity, the torturer should be put on trial and have to argue his or her case to a jury.

Or, if we're doing utilitarianism, the torturer is also expendable, and should plead guilty, sacrificing his or her liberty and livelihood for the greater good.

Funny how this argument is rarely made.
 
How about the unlikelihood of an agent having enough evidence to know X terrorist planted a bomb, but no idea where the bomb is. Mr Terrorist would have to be captured in a brief window of opportunity. None of this applies to men in Guantanamo.

The "ticking bomb scenario" is a legitimising myth. It's a repellent university thought-exercise tailored to manipulate students into justifying atrocities, and should be banned in any reputable philosophy department.

I could make a utilitarian case against torture -- any useful information you gather must be counted against the damage the practice does to your country's reputation, and the resources wasted chasing the mountains of fantasy from men desperate men to stop the pain -- but I won't bother. Torture is self-evidently wrong, and of use only to tyrants. It's nothing to do with gathering information; it's about using the calculated exercise of terror against your opponents. Always has been, always will be.
 
Or how about the terrorist suspect knowing that time is of the essence, and that any information he gives will be acted upon.

He then purposely gives false information to mislead the intelligence services, ensuring that the terrorist attack is successful.

The foiling of any 'terrorist attack' (I feel uncomfortable even using these terms, for some reason) is going be the result of long term surveilence and gathering of intelligence. In the extremely unlikely situation that the '24' scenario actually happens, if they have to stop it at the last minute, the intelligence services have already failed.

That is just one example among MANY that shows the '24' defence is fucking ridiculous.
 
Rainingstairs said:
There really should be an "I Hate The USA" subforum on these boards.
Click to expand...

Do me a favour, we spend as much vitriol and hatred on our own 'powers that be' as we do yours.

Don't fall into the trap of thinking that condemning the actions of american government or military equate to hating the USA.
 
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