US torture flights landed in UK

[jæd]

No, wrong. That is not my view, it is your misperception of what my view is. You are judging me on what i say. Poor mistake.

Right. So... On a bulletin board how else can I perceive you...?

Run away to thailand? You poor defensive idiot. Why the fuck should i come back to britain when i'm having a fucking great time where i'm living? Where is my responsibility to a country that is fucking itself up? I'm responsible to just one person, and that's me.

And you don't find that a tiny bit selfish. "I'm alright Jack so sod the rest of you"

Yet another poor deluded soul who reckons that coz i'm not there i'm not allowed to criticize the country.

I think its mainly your perception of the UK that gets me. You're on the opposite side of the world but you think you can tell me whats going on in your own country. How would you feel if I did the same about Thailand...?

I do hope you don't criticize america or any other country, coz if you do you'd be a class A hypocrite.

Why would that be hypocritical...? I live in the Uk. I don't like this Government much which why I voted against at the last election. Rather than spending my time whining about how crap it is and then going to the beach.

 

[nino_savatte]

Now this is where me living abroad from my own country comes in. I get a new perspective. I see and hear about my country being talked about in the general terms in which i talk about it.

To illustrate, many americans have a hard time abroad these days since bush and since 911. Like it or not, all americans are judged based on the foreign policy actions of their leaders. It may be unfair, but it's reality.

There was a time when it paid very much not to be known to be australian in indonesia.

The british are talked about as a whole entity by folk around the world. The distinction between someone like you who speaks out about shit and those who do not speak out is not made.

As it happens, i take my role seriously and do my best to promote the good name of britain wherever it may exist. Just coz i criticize my country doesn't mean i don't hold positive views about it. I speak simply as i see things. If you don't like it, then that's unfortunately tough.

Life's a bitch and then we die...

Thing is, I don't need to leave the country to get a new or different perspective....why should I?

It's a little like saying because Bush was returned to power last year, all Americans must take full responsibility for his and Cheney's wild west antics around the globe, regardless of their political persuasions.

 

[fela fan]

Right. So... On a bulletin board how else can I perceive you...?



And you don't find that a tiny bit selfish. "I'm alright Jack so sod the rest of you"



I think its mainly your perception of the UK that gets me. You're on the opposite side of the world but you think you can tell me whats going on in your own country. How would you feel if I did the same about Thailand...?



Why would that be hypocritical...? I live in the Uk. I don't like this Government much which why I voted against at the last election. Rather than spending my time whining about how crap it is and then going to the beach.

Apologies, i never knew how to break posts up to reply to them, hope you can follow...

Try not to perceive me, deal with my posts.

I discovered upon leaving england the delights in life of a bit of selfishness. It's not allowed in britain, peer pressure will see to that. Ironically learning how to be selfish from time to time leads to a happier self. Try it some time mate. I've argued vehemently for justice where it doesn't exist for many many years now. I do my bit, but i also get fustrated sometimes when the likes of blair can get reelected. It makes me wonder why bother.

I don't think i can tell you what's going on in england, i do tell you. If i'm wrong, then show where and how, then i can correct my understandings. But don't bother judging me as a person, coz a) i don't give a fuck and b) you're not showing me where i am wrong. Isn't the latter what debate is all about?

If i can take you out of your perceptions of life for a minute and into mine: whenever i criticize britain on these boards it is just so predictable that folk will come forward to tell me i have no right to do this if i'm no longer living there. It's fucking defensive bullshit man, and hypocritical coz many of the same posters like to bash america even though they don't live there.

Arguably mate, a person critical of their own country is a patriot. Now do yourself a favour and recognise that anyone has a right to an opinion about anywhere, we're all from the same world. Quit judging those people if they are 'wrong', and tell them why they are wrong by sticking to the topic.

Now, if you want to be critical of thailand, then be my guest. I will stick to what you say and avoid judging you. No-one likes to be judged, although for me here on urban it happens so predictably on this particular forum that i no longer give a fuck. Now why not scroll down in world and find my own critical thread on thailand eh?

 

[fela fan]

Thing is, I don't need to leave the country to get a new or different perspective....why should I?

It's a little like saying because Bush was returned to power last year, all Americans must take full responsibility for his and Cheney's wild west antics around the globe, regardless of their political persuasions.

No, you shouldn't, nor need you, it's your life. But miraculously by living outside of one's society, you get feedback on that same society through different eyes, and naturally enough you gain additional angles on it, and ways of looking at that you never did before when living within it.

And no it is not even a tiny bit like that, coz you have inserted the word 'all' and i have strenuously stated that i'm talking about the sum of people as perceived by those outside of that nation.

You know, i'm using similar language that news programmes often use where they say that 'america' has made such and such a decision, and 'britain' are going to do this or that. They even talk about american people and british people. But patently that cannot mean every single person.

Like it or not, you as a person will be judged by people you've never met based on the fact that you are british. And a lot of that will depend on things like our foreign policy, never mind our empire days. Incredibly, allowing for such things, there is still great sentiment towards british people in many parts of the world.

 

[fela fan]

Nice to see that your time in Thailand hasn't affected your ability to detect sarcasm...

Oh i detected it alright, but i thought i'd play dumb and go along with it, after all i'm at the receiving end of being judged as a person by people who've never met me. And you appear to have fallen for it.

 

[fela fan]

Why would that be hypocritical...? I live in the Uk. I don't like this Government much which why I voted against at the last election. Rather than spending my time whining about how crap it is and then going to the beach.

See my above answer as to why you're being hypocritical.

I'm not whining, that is your judgment yet again. I'm not saying how crap the country is, but you're judging it that way. I live over 700 kms from the nearest beach.

Now get this, the inability to take criticism is one of the fundamental reasons why men to to war. The little englander mentality screams out when an english person says that a non-english person (or in my case one that no longer lives there) has no right to sit in judgment of england.

 

[fela fan]

So we can now, perhaps for the first time, see just how much people have come to care about work/the economy, about schools and about the NHS, above everything else – and as long as those things are fine, the Government can do pretty well as it likes.

That is who ‘we’ are, the people, the consumers, of the UK free market democracy. Politicians may make noises and pretence to care, but they know that making a meal of this has only short-term point-scoring value.

Consume, and be happy.

Good reading of the situation mate. That was my original point, the british people (as a whole nino, as a whole, not you ok) no longer care about such things, for the reasons you've provided.

 

[TeeJay]

Up until now they'd been denying all knowledge of the flights.

I thought they simply denied knowledge about the extraordinary rendition programme. This new information simply says that CIA planes have come through. This doesn't prove that these planes were actually 'rendering' people or that the UK government knew or cared who or what were on the planes.

 

[nino_savatte]

No, you shouldn't, nor need you, it's your life. But miraculously by living outside of one's society, you get feedback on that same society through different eyes, and naturally enough you gain additional angles on it, and ways of looking at that you never did before when living within it.

And no it is not even a tiny bit like that, coz you have inserted the word 'all' and i have strenuously stated that i'm talking about the sum of people as perceived by those outside of that nation.

You know, i'm using similar language that news programmes often use where they say that 'america' has made such and such a decision, and 'britain' are going to do this or that. They even talk about american people and british people. But patently that cannot mean every single person.

Like it or not, you as a person will be judged by people you've never met based on the fact that you are british. And a lot of that will depend on things like our foreign policy, never mind our empire days. Incredibly, allowing for such things, there is still great sentiment towards british people in many parts of the world.

Sorry fela, but you're not making a very good case here...and it makes it look as though you simply "ran away". Sorry.

 

[jæd]

Oh i detected it alright, but i thought i'd play dumb and go along with it, after all i'm at the receiving end of being judged as a person by people who've never met me. And you appear to have fallen for it.

Thats the point of bulletin boards....! If had to go and meet the poster in person than it would the whole "posting on the internet to save time" a bit redundent...

 

[jæd]

Apologies, i never knew how to break posts up to reply to them, hope you can follow...

You might want to learn. It isn't hard and saves time....

I discovered upon leaving england the delights in life of a bit of selfishness. It's not allowed in britain, peer pressure will see to that. Ironically learning how to be selfish from time to time leads to a happier self.

So you're a selfish bugger. Ho-hum...

I don't think i can tell you what's going on in england, i do tell you. If i'm wrong, then show where and how, then i can correct my understandings.

Everyone has their own perceptions. But seeing events in the UK secondhand as you do makes your postings and opinions quite week. Its like TobjJug all over again. Just a bit warmer.

...whenever i criticize britain on these boards it is just so predictable that folk will come forward to tell me i have no right to do this if i'm no longer living there. It's fucking defensive bullshit man, and hypocritical coz many of the same posters like to bash america even though they don't live there.

Nope. Its just that people are slightly amazed that someone has runaway from the UK to a nice and warm country. With a political system that is more corrupt than the UK will ever. And then tries to tell us all that is wrong about this country & how it is going to the dogs. You have amusing entertainment value, but I don't think anyone listens to you seriously. As I said. If you care about the UK then you would be here dealing with shit. Rather sitting 700 kms from the nearest beach. (Ever thought of mocving closer...)

Now, if you want to be critical of thailand, then be my guest.

Why -- It'd be pointless as, although I was there recently, I don't live there fulltime so can't expereince events first hand.

 

[fela fan]

Sorry fela, but you're not making a very good case here...and it makes it look as though you simply "ran away". Sorry.

Ah well, can't do it all the time mate.

Ran away? Well, i certainly wanted to get out of the country. But i also expected to come back. However, having met a life that gives me considerable joy, i never came back. Unlikely too given the way the place is going under blair and his spinners.

 

[fela fan]

So you're a selfish bugger. Ho-hum...



Everyone has their own perceptions. But seeing events in the UK secondhand as you do makes your postings and opinions quite week.

That is enough to say goodbye to you. Don't be bothering me again mate. Just go off and grow older and learn how to spell, there's a good lad.

 

[jæd]

That is enough to say goodbye to you. Don't be bothering me again mate. Just go off and grow older and learn how to spell, there's a good lad.

I won't...! Selfish little cowards who run away and don't back themselves up apart from weaseling aren't on my "priority one" list...!

 

[nino_savatte]

Ah well, can't do it all the time mate.

Ran away? Well, i certainly wanted to get out of the country. But i also expected to come back. However, having met a life that gives me considerable joy, i never came back. Unlikely too given the way the place is going under blair and his spinners.

Met a "life" or met a "wife"? So what you're saying here is that because of "Blair and his spinners", we are all just as bad as the government - non? It's a poor reason to apply a blanket dismissal to the entire country because of one man and his dog and pony show.

Tell me, is Shinawatti any better than Blair? Last time I checked he was something of an autocrat...and a crook. Oh, and if you should dare step on a coin with the face of the king, you're for the chop. You can deface a portrait of the Queen here and get away with it. You can't do that in Thailand - can you?

 

[TAE]

I mean exactly what i say. People don't care enough.

Considering that NewLabour continues to win majorities in parliament, I have to agree with you there - although I would say "Too many people don't care enough".

 

[fela fan]

Considering that NewLabour continues to win majorities in parliament, I have to agree with you there - although I would say "Too many people don't care enough".

Well that is nino's problem with what i say, even though i've explained it that many times, including on this thread. Obviously you're right, i need to spell it out more.

 

[fela fan]

Met a "life" or met a "wife"? So what you're saying here is that because of "Blair and his spinners", we are all just as bad as the government - non? It's a poor reason to apply a blanket dismissal to the entire country because of one man and his dog and pony show.

Tell me, is Shinawatti any better than Blair? Last time I checked he was something of an autocrat...and a crook. Oh, and if you should dare step on a coin with the face of the king, you're for the chop. You can deface a portrait of the Queen here and get away with it. You can't do that in Thailand - can you?

LIFE nino, LIFE. No, that's not what i'm saying and you know it, so stop being so pig-headed by refusing to accept my explanations. You called me up on something based on my use of language, i explained myself with more specific language (just as we've done before) and you still come out with this shit. Stop being dishonest and disingenious.

As for the leader of thailand, well, you contributed to my thread about the man, and in case your memory's not clear enough go to world and find it again. You know perfectly well what i think about the man. As for your coin anecdote, bullshit. And yes you can, i ripped the king in half, and i'm still around.

 

[nino_savatte]

LIFE nino, LIFE. No, that's not what i'm saying and you know it, so stop being so pig-headed by refusing to accept my explanations. You called me up on something based on my use of language, i explained myself with more specific language (just as we've done before) and you still come out with this shit. Stop being dishonest and disingenious.

As for the leader of thailand, well, you contributed to my thread about the man, and in case your memory's not clear enough go to world and find it again. You know perfectly well what i think about the man. As for your coin anecdote, bullshit. And yes you can, i ripped the king in half, and i'm still around.

Stop being patronising, fela. I am not being dishonest. Please show me where I am being dishonest because nothing that I have said to you has been a lie. You're weasling here as well; what does language have to do with your pontifications on the people of this country?

As for the second paragraph, you are trying to evade the issue by hiding behind an undergrowth of meaningless verbiage.

 

[phildwyer]

The little englander mentality screams out when an english person says that a non-english person (or in my case one that no longer lives there) has no right to sit in judgment of england.

Indeed. Not to mention the fact that modern Britain was largely *made* by expats. Britain *invented* expatriation. And only someone very ignorant of history would deride emigrants as "running away." Emigration is the lifeblood of the world, and has been since the sixteenth century. But the truth is that many British people still feel aggrieved at, and simultaneously threatened by, the existence of foriegn lands and different cultures. It is hard for them to understand why anyone would prefer any other way of doing things to the British.

 

[TeeJay]

Britain *invented* expatriation.

It's been going on for far longer than that.

 

[fela fan]

Indeed. Not to mention the fact that modern Britain was largely *made* by expats. Britain *invented* expatriation. And only someone very ignorant of history would deride emigrants as "running away." Emigration is the lifeblood of the world, and has been since the sixteenth century. But the truth is that many British people still feel aggrieved at, and simultaneously threatened by, the existence of foriegn lands and different cultures. It is hard for them to understand why anyone would prefer any other way of doing things to the British.

This is an insightful post. Although it may be that you have tapped into a human condition, rather than anything overtly british per se. But perhaps we do it better than others!

In fact i doubt any country in the world is the source of so much emigration than britain. We are everywhere!

What i will add (to your comment about british people feeling threatened by foreign lands) is that many of those who stay in britain consider british emigrants as people who have forfeited their right to be british. Many on this forum for example tell me that coz i live in thailand i am not allowed to be critical of my home country any more. Only they may have that privilege.

And another example is that by british law i have been punished for daring to leave the country. I had to pay the foreigner's rate when i came back to study six years ago!

 

[fela fan]

Stop being patronising, fela. I am not being dishonest. Please show me where I am being dishonest because nothing that I have said to you has been a lie. You're weasling here as well; what does language have to do with your pontifications on the people of this country?

As for the second paragraph, you are trying to evade the issue by hiding behind an undergrowth of meaningless verbiage.

Because i keep telling you that my observations about britain are based on the majority of people, not all of them. But you keep ignoring that. I told you i didn't include you many times, but you have not internalised that.

Maybe dishonest is wrong, and i accept that. But then it is ignorance.

And as for me patronising you, no i'm not, i'm responding to your posts, what you're saying. It is YOU that feels patronised, and there's fuck all i can do about how you react to things.

Finally, yes, anything you say i am i am, because that's what i am according to you. What i am according to me is another thing entirely. So you are right 100% of the time!

 

[nino_savatte]

Because i keep telling you that my observations about britain are based on the majority of people, not all of them. But you keep ignoring that. I told you i didn't include you many times, but you have not internalised that.

Maybe dishonest is wrong, and i accept that. But then it is ignorance.

And as for me patronising you, no i'm not, i'm responding to your posts, what you're saying. It is YOU that feels patronised, and there's fuck all i can do about how you react to things.

Finally, yes, anything you say i am i am, because that's what i am according to you. What i am according to me is another thing entirely. So you are right 100% of the time!

All I see is you sliding around and backpeddling but then you say that you're replying to me and not patronising me. You can reply to someone and patronise them at the same time...and no, it has nothing to do with "how I react to things"...you are being patronising and to claim that I am somehow "overreacting" is a patronising thing to say.

 

[fela fan]

All I see is you sliding around and backpeddling but then you say that you're replying to me and not patronising me. You can reply to someone and patronise them at the same time...and no, it has nothing to do with "how I react to things"...you are being patronising and to claim that I am somehow "overreacting" is a patronising thing to say.

Whatever you say about me nino is correct. Everything is up to you about who i am. I am whoever you want me to be.

 

[nino_savatte]

Whatever you say about me nino is correct. Everything is up to you about who i am. I am whoever you want me to be.

Christ on a bike!

 

[phildwyer]

This is an insightful post. Although it may be that you have tapped into a human condition, rather than anything overtly british per se. But perhaps we do it better than others!

In fact i doubt any country in the world is the source of so much emigration than britain. We are everywhere!

What i will add (to your comment about british people feeling threatened by foreign lands) is that many of those who stay in britain consider british emigrants as people who have forfeited their right to be british. Many on this forum for example tell me that coz i live in thailand i am not allowed to be critical of my home country any more. Only they may have that privilege.

And another example is that by british law i have been punished for daring to leave the country. I had to pay the foreigner's rate when i came back to study six years ago!

Expats can judge their native country far better than those who still live there. To quote the cliche, you really learn the *truth* about your native country when you live abroad.

 

[phildwyer]

And another example is that by british law i have been punished for daring to leave the country. I had to pay the foreigner's rate when i came back to study six years ago!

Are you aware that since 2004, technically, expats are no longer allowed to use the NHS? And with the introduction of ID cards, that rule will be enforced.

 

[fela fan]

Are you aware that since 2004, technically, expats are no longer allowed to use the NHS? And with the introduction of ID cards, that rule will be enforced.

What do you mean 'technically' mate? I wasn't aware, but i'm not surprised. This government are nasty petty gits. The last time i was there was 2003, i'm going there in the summer this year, and plan to basically never go there again. This kind of thing just adds clarity to my plans! And since when i renew my passport i will have to be added to the database, i wonder about the need to remain british at all.

I wonder if i could become, say, spanish??

 

[fela fan]

Expats can judge their native country far better than those who still live there. To quote the cliche, you really learn the *truth* about your native country when you live abroad.

Yes, true! You become an insider outside looking in...