US plan to undermine Hamas, arm Fatah
- Thread starter CyberRose
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bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
it must be wonderful to see everything in such black and white terms. israel good, palestine bad. israel completely innocent, palestine completely guilty. i wish i could look at this horrible vicious circle and see only good and evil.
it must be lovely to be a bloodthirsty racist moron and have such confidence in the world. sadly i'm possessed of critical faculties and cannot believe that this is anything other than a horrible mess perpetuated by fundamentalist scumbags with no interest in stopping the fighting, their moron followers, and apologists of all nations who stoke the fuels of conflict.
it must be lovely to be a bloodthirsty racist moron and have such confidence in the world. sadly i'm possessed of critical faculties and cannot believe that this is anything other than a horrible mess perpetuated by fundamentalist scumbags with no interest in stopping the fighting, their moron followers, and apologists of all nations who stoke the fuels of conflict.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Peet said:
Not all Palestinians voted for Hamas, you trolling fuckwit.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
TomUS said:
Only one "side" is a state that makes claims to democracy, the other "side" is a ragbag of different sectarian groups, the sum of whose actual aggresive actions amount to about a fifth of the carnage wreaked by the state they oppose.
What the state of Israel practices is "collective punishment" by virtue of their status as a sovereign nation-state (albeit one that evades its' obligations under international law), a status that hasn't been permitted to the Palestinians.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Peet said:
Wishful thinking on your part.
The kind of wishful thinking that renders the disproprtionate actions of the I"D"F permissible in some (unthinking) minds.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Peet said:
Oh, sorry, I wasn't aware that the entire electorally eligible complement of Palestinians had voted for HAMAS en masse, the only scenario that would make your "collective responsibilty" scenario even vaguely tenable.
Well mercy me, it appears that the "entire electorally eligible complement of Palestinians" didn't vote for HAMAS.
Mmmm, that kind of makes your spiel about "collective responsibility" look like the stream of vapid piss that it is, wouldn't you say?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
bluestreak said:
Perhaps it is "lovely" and "wonderful" to believe as he does.
Me, I just feel pity for the poor sod, having dementia at such an early age.
Sorry, I can't buy that double standard. Collective punnishment is collective punnishment whether practiced by a state or a "ragbag of different sectarian groups." And the amount of carnage inflicted is unrelated to the definition of collective punnishment.ViolentPanda said:
TomUS said:
It is not a double standard - it is fact. And the damage done by Palestinians is minescule compared to that done by the Israelis.
Would you not want to fight back if someone invaded your home, said it now belonged to them and either kicked you out with nothing or tried to control your every move?
Oh, I think it's absolutely a double standard. You're saying that nothing Palestinians do to Israeli civilians is coll punnishment? All Israelis are fair game then?ZAMB said:
And yes, I would fight back, but I'd hope I wouldn't deliberately massacre children & other innocents as some Palestinians have routinely done.
And.....comparing the damage done by each side indicates only who is most militarily powerful, not who's right or wrong.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
TomUS said:
There's no double standard.
There's no comparison between a state-sanctioned military force inflicting punishment on innocents (in spite of international legal safeguards) because they happen to live in the same area as criminals, and the activities of a small minority of those people who decide to avenge that punishment and/or persecute a struggle against their (de facto or elected) rulers.
You see, I haven't heard of a water-pumping station, electricity generating station or sewerage connection that serves Israelis being attacked constantly, but I have seen an awful lot of reports about similar Palestinian infrastructure being attacked.
Peet said:
They were right?? The so called Israelis?? What universe are you living in anyway??? That people who have the same religion as those that lived in a country 2000 years ago have a right to kick out the current inhabitants?? Why are you not campaigning on behalf of the native Americans or Australians then - to get their country back for them from much more recent settlers??? The UK would be more difficult to sort out, having been invaded so many times in the distant past.
AnnO'Neemus
Is so vanilla
But you're working on the assumption that Hamas is the aggressor disownedspiritdisownedspirit said:
chicken:egg
The reason I think Hamas are firing rockets into Israel is to retaliate against Israeli assassination attempts, Israeli attacks on unarmed civilians, Israeli state-sponsored terrorism.
AnnO'Neemus
Is so vanilla
Fo' real?Peet said:
Why is it all right for the IDF to target civilians and make no effort at all to prevent civilian casualties, but it's not all right for the Palestinians/Lebanese or whoever to fight back?
If a third party country, i.e. Britain, gives away another nation's territory and starts a nakba/exodus of the indigenous people, throwing conventions of self-determination and sovereignty aside, then the consequences are going to be a response that aims to do likewise.
Palestine is protecting its own. I can't imagine any other country doing anything else.
This is just cause and effect.
TomUS said:
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/net-report.html
This is especially chilling.
http://www.auphr.org/oregonian.php
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/chron/report.html
And this is just recent reporting of children's deaths - not all deaths caused by violence.
ZAMB said:
My problem with that assessment is that there weas no country to speak of. What was given to the Jews was mostly desert and uncultivated scrub. There were very few farms and next to no economic activity. The arabs who occupied the mandate of palestine were largely economic migrants because of the increased economic activity caused by a mass influx of jews.
Arab violence kicked off because Arabs have always opposed the idea of a Jewish national home. There was no appropriation of Arab land until the arab uprising of 1938 (IIRC)
Because I'm really not all that interested in who's land it was, more who developed it and what it has become. Australia wasn't a nation. It may have had inhabitants but, as with Israel, there was enough space for settlers and developers. What was built endures as a liberal and free society. You can argue that American settlers and Australian settlers were brutal to the indigenous populations. They were. But arabs worked for jews building Israel until the arabs kicked off. And as I said, the idea that the arabs were native to the mandate of palestine is a falsehood. Most of them were nomads. You can't say they were thrown off their farms because up until Israeli irrigation, there weren't any in the land allocated to them.
The arabs were given 85% of the mandate of palestine. Why the arabs would want what was given to the israelis is beyond me. I'm curious to know if the arabs would be so keen to return if the Israelis returned it as they found it. I very much doubt it.
AnnO'Neemus said:
It isn't alright for the IDF to target civilians. Israel doesn't target civilians. It targets terrorists who hide among civilians.
It makes considerable effort to avoid civilian casualties. Hence the investment in hugely expensive but ever more accurate weaponry. There are times when IDF officers on the ground show spectacular lapses of judgement, ie the shelling that kkilled 19 people sometime last year. and there are other times when ISrael has warned the civilian population where they will strike and the terrorists and prevented civilians form leaving as protection.
bedsides, when women and children are often every bit as combattant as the men and often just as well armed, how does a soldier adequately define innocent civilian?
Lets face it, if Israel really did want to indiscriminately target civilians as a punative measure, why would they be launching hugely expensive laser guided weapons when an artillery barrage or carpet bombing would be much cheaper and easier? Could it be something to do with minimising casualties?
I think you will find that practically every Israeli strike has been targeted and retaliatory.
And no, the actions of Hizballah were not justified. Random unguided ordinance fired into Israeli towns IS indiscriminate targeting of civilians.
Hizballah are a militia without a democratic mandate which makes them a terrorist group. They may have elected representetives but they are not in government and are not in the majority. In effect that's like the armed wing of the lib dems starting a war with france.
If that ever happen I wouldn't hold it against france if they bombed Lib Dem strongholds and known headquarters as the ISraelis did in Lebanon.
I think you'll find the arabs were fleeing a war that was supposed to be coming their way. A war started by Arabs.
Self determination and sovereignty are notions you apply to nation states. The mandate of palestine was not a nation state. It was a territory under british colonial administration.
Assuming I've read your analogy correctly.
"palestine" is protecting nothing. Terrorists are waging a pointless war of vengeance upon a people whose historical and ethical right to what is there outweighs their own by a factor of ten. The vicitms of this terrorism are the arabs in their grip and the people of Israel. I pity the "palestinian" civilians who just want a life and a job. If their leadership would stop sponsoring terrorism they might get a break from the Israelis and the international community.
And what of the rest of of the Hamas sponsored projectiles?
Personally I think the Israelis are playing this one for sympathy. The technology exists to adequately knockout incoming rockets and mortars and israel doesn't deploy it. I'm quite sure it's not on financial grounds. It's just and excuse to eliminate Hamas. Which I suppose is a step toward peace but it's preferable that palestinians get rid of them.
Personally I think the Israelis are playing this one for sympathy. The technology exists to adequately knockout incoming rockets and mortars and israel doesn't deploy it. I'm quite sure it's not on financial grounds. It's just and excuse to eliminate Hamas. Which I suppose is a step toward peace but it's preferable that palestinians get rid of them.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
LOL!!!!! You must be joking!!!
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Peet said:
That's right, retreat into a world of legalistic loopholes. The IDF, by anyone's definition, is a military force.
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