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US no-go zones

Detroit City said:
within 3 miles of the white house and capitol hill you can pick up a street-walking prostitues. literally in the shadow of the entire US govt. :D

you could probably buy an illegal handgun and some crack too

Three miles? Try three yards. There was a famous campaign commerical for the first George Bush, when he appeared with a bag of crack that one of his aides had just bought in the park behind the White House.
 
Yuwipi Woman said:
I go pretty much everywhere. I think the whole thing is overblown by tourists.

Part of being able to walk just about everywhere is attitude. If you have "street presence" you will be mostly left alone.

Not if you're white.
 
Detroit City said:
most british/australians could not distinguish between an american accent or canadian accent either....
I'm sure that's right. It was offered as an observation, rather than a criticism.
D said:
Growing up in NY conditioned me to feel safe when there were people on the street, even if those people are not always folks I'd immediately invite round for tea.
Absolutely. I have never once felt unsafe in New York, and i think a lot of that has to do with the fact that there are always people around.

You're right that a lot of it is about attitude and confidence. If you act like you belong there, then people will often assume that you do, and leave you alone; if you act all nervous and out-of-place, you are more likely to attract the attention of the troublemakers.

Of course, this only takes you so far. There are some people who will fuck with you no matter how confident you appear. Thankfully, those people are a minority.
 
mhendo said:
There are some people who will fuck with you no matter how confident you appear. Thankfully, those people are a minority.
especially if they have a Glock 9mm and you have nothing :D
 
I felt unsafe in both Baltimore and Philly when I first went there, in a way that I never did in London, where I'll walk anywhere.

It's cultural though. There are certain subtle little signs and behaviours which you get used to unconsciously in your native culture, and which have parallels in other places but which you don't know. So to start with I was always nervous when I was on the bus because body language and speech patterns and so on were different. But I learnt them fairly quickly and after that I was happy going pretty much anywhere.

The advantage of learning things that way is that you don't pick up cultural prejudices to do with, say, class signifiers in the way that a native would have over the years. Little differences in accent that clearly had class implications within the US, I had no issue with, even if I noticed them. That sort of prejudice takes years to pick up. In the same way, foreigners who live in the UK don't have the same prejudices that I've picked up from growing up here; they've learnt as adults, they've rejected things which are irrational. I see this with my parents sometimes. (Of course, immigrants can be just as snobby as anyone else if they put their minds to it.)
 
phildwyer said:
Not if you're white.
I'd say _not_ having street presence was the best way of avoiding any trouble. Don't look lost or indecisive, don't look at the scenery, just look like you know where you're going and you're on your way, you're just part of everyday life. Being black or white or hispanic in the wrong area is just an extra factor that can make you stand out.

eta: but of course in 99.99% of cases nobody cares anyway. Maybe you're an unusual sight in the area so they may look at you, but whatever.
 
FridgeMagnet said:
I felt unsafe in both Baltimore and Philly when I first went there, in a way that I never did in London, where I'll walk anywhere.
most large cities in the US are intimidating if you're not used to them and almost all have areas where things are a bit shady and unsafe. usually if you ask the locals they'll freely tell you where to stay away from cause its common knowledge.

in general if you see a lot of people who look like you and they're in the same socio-economic status then you should be fairly safe....but there are never any guarantees anywhere.
 
Yeah, but you can't always trust the locals. I imagine that most of my (very middle-class suburban) workmates would have told me to stay well away from some of the people I ended up talking to. My proper friends usually had good advice though.

Loads of Londoners would tell you to stay away from Brixton and watch your wallet and phone if you ever had to go through there.
 
Yuwipi Woman said:
Part of being able to walk just about everywhere is attitude.

In some streets in some towns in Britain it has whether some people like it or not to do with what race you are and which street you intent to walk down.
 
I've only lived (for any reasonable time in the US) in NY, Boston and Jersey City (if that counts as not being NY). I never felt intimidated in any of those cities even though I explored all areas on foot.

The idea of armed security guys in Jersey City took a bit of getting used to and I regularly heard gun shots. However, I was pretty blind to the threats and unaware of any danger. Read the local papers, saw the gangs on street corners, the drug dealing, dodgy clubs and witnessed what I suspect were 'staged' shooting events in midtown NY clubs. None of it scared me. It all seemed like an act or, theatre I wasn't a part of. I once got hassled by a guy on a train insisting I was going back to his place. It didn't bother me. Next stop I just thumped him and got off the train.

In London, I can't recall one occasion when I had genuine reason to be concerned. Yet, I can recall many 'intimidating' walks home. Maybe that was just because I was more familiar with local and national media crap and rumour spreading?

Strange that we should feel a little more uncomfortable in unfamiliar city environments. I rarely do. I suspect the unfamiliarity with local myths and a more open awareness of what the reality is has more to do with your own interpretations of any environment.

Maybe being blind to cultural differences is actually a very good thing when visiting foreign cities.
 
Stanley Edwards said:
Maybe being blind to cultural differences is actually a very good thing when visiting foreign cities.
True SE....but most visitors to foreign lands don't intend to go to the less desirable areas where crime is rampant. They generally go to the tourist traps and such.

Personally i've never met an american who wanted to spend $3,000 to travel overseas to visit slums and see crime. They can see that here for free. :)
 
'although there was a drive by shouting once'

One way system, smooth and commendable,
go by bus, they're highly dependable,
the swings in the park, for the kids, have won awards,
clean streets acknowledged in The Lords,
but whats a park if you can't see a linnet?
a timetable if your journey's infinite?
My bag's packed and I'm leaving in a minute,
for what is Chatteris without you in it?

Car crime's low, gun crime's lower,
the town hall band CD, it's a grower,
you never hear of folk getting knocked on the bonce,
although there was a drive by shouting once,
but there's a brass band everywhere,
and I dont drive so I care,
and as a nightingale sang in berkley square,
what is chatteris if you're not there?

like a game-bird reserve short on pheasants,
weavers cottages devoid of tenants,
a market town that lacks quintessence,
that's Chatteris without your presence,
three good butcher's, two fine chandlers,
an indoor pool, a first class cake shop,
OFSTED plaudits, envy of the fens,
prick barriers at both ends,
But what's Chatteris if you're not there?
what's Chatteris if you're not there?
what's Chatteris if you're not there?
what's Chatteris if you're not there?
what's Chatteris if you're not there?
what's Chatteris if you're not there?
I may as well be in Ely or Saint Ives.
 
D said:
Growing up in NY conditioned me to feel safe when there were people on the street...
Also, on the issue of people on the street: one of the reasons that cities like Baltimore and Detroit have become such havens for criminal activity, and therefore dangerous, is that those cities have so many empty buildings and half-abandoned neighborhoods, as described by Yossarian, above. This leaves lots of places where drug dealers and gangs can thrive without any oversight from law enforcement or from community members who want to keep their neighborhoods safe.

Anyone who's seen The Corner or The Wire knows the way that drug users and dealers use abandoned houses in Baltimore for dealing and shooting up. And once this starts in a neighborhood, the people who want to avoid crime and violence often move out, leading to further decay.

Baltimore and Detroit are both textbook examples of postwar "white flight," in which middle class white Americans fled the cities and moved to the suburbs, leaving behind mainly poorer, black residents. In the 1950s, Baltimore's population peaked at about 950,000 (in the city proper), and Detroit's peaked at almost 2 million. Now, Baltimore has about 670,000 and Detroit just dropped below 900,000. That's a net loss of about 300,000 in Baltimore, and about 1 million in Detroit. When that many people leave, there are lots of abandoned houses and small businesses. Baltimore currently has between 10,000 and 15,000 abandoned houses.

Of course, the decline in population lowers the tax base, leaving the city with less money to provide schools, services, etc. To maintain its income, the city raises property taxes. Faced with declining services and rising taxes, even more residents choose to flee to the suburbs, continuing a vicious cycle of decline. While it's very easy to complain about the consequences of gentrification, with its influx of yuppies, at least it can help prevent cities fall into this poverty trap. What we need is urban policy that seeks to make city life livable for people from low income backgrounds, rather than (a) abandoning them to destitution and violence, or (b) forcing them out and replacing them with dot com workers and investment bankers, a la San Francisco.
Detroit City said:
especially if they have a Glock 9mm and you have nothing
Anecdote time.

A few weeks ago, my partner and i spent two weeks in New York. We have a very small back yard where we grow tomatoes during the summer, and the evening before we left Baltimore, i went to our next-door neighbor's place to give them a bag of tomatoes that would otherwise have gone to waste. Our neighbors are an older white couple, probably late 60s, and obviously of working class background, even though they seem pretty comfortable financially.

I knocked on the door at about 8pm, as it was getting dark. At first i thought no-one was home, but then the husband came to the door, saw who it was, and opened up. "Oh, it's you Mike. Sorry i took so long, but i had to get this," he said, pulling a big handgun from the back of his waistband. It was a large-calibre revolver--a Beretta, i think he said--and he told me that he never answers the door without it after dark.
 
mhendo said:
I knocked on the door at about 8pm, as it was getting dark. At first i thought no-one was home, but then the husband came to the door, saw who it was, and opened up. "Oh, it's you Mike. Sorry i took so long, but i had to get this," he said, pulling a big handgun from the back of his waistband. It was a large-calibre revolver--a Beretta, i think he said--and he told me that he never answers the door without it after dark.
welcome to america :D

where most people live in fear
 
ska invita said:
On a recent trip to LA i asked the family i was staying with to drive through compton - just to see what the less glossy side of the town looked like.

No one I was staying with would agree even to drive through Compton - they said it just wasnt worth the risk.

I took this as over-fearful, but a number of people i talked to said that there are a few parts of town that are just no-go zones - even to drive through because of car jackings.

IS this really the case, and is this common across the big towns in the US, that there are real no go zones?

It put things into perspective for me - at least even in roughest parts of Britain I wouldnt feel that it wasnt safe to visit.

I've always made it a point to drive to the dodgiest parts of every large city I visit in the US. In Chicago, I went to the south side, and drove down side streets in order to find the poorest, most desperate areas. When I did, I'd go into the local markets to buy things, and suss the place out.

In LA, I drove through Watts, Compton, etc, in SF, it was Oakland. In all these occasions, I was driving a vehicle with British Columbia plates.

The only places I felt a bit uneasy, was in East St. Louis, the most blighted urban environment I've ever encountered in the US; in East LA, where some of the hispanic brothers didn't seem to appreciate us too much, and in an all white neighborhood in South San Francisco.

I never felt in imminent physical danger, although when I came back and told a black friend from St. Louis about my trip to East St. Louis, he said something like 'you crazy!' But he's an american, with american prejudices.
 
I think part of the reason I don't have a lot of trouble in the poorest areas of american cities is because I have brown skin and curly hair, but I have a white wife, and mixed kids, and it still doesn't seem a problem.

That same grouping got us some uneasy glances etc in Montana and Idaho, though.

Prejudice is a funny thing. Once, in LA, we stopped for some food and drink at a fast food place, then headed out onto a major street. At a light, there were a couple of mexicans selling oranges, like they do at intersections.

These two mexicans started pointing at our car and yelling in spanish. We thought: 'this is it: we're going to be killed by crazy mexicans.'

They kept pointing and yelling, and as soon as the light changed, we drove off.

A couple of blocks later, we stopped for some reason; we got out of the car, and realized that when we'd left the fast food joint, we'd left one of the drinks on the roof of the car. The mexicans were just trying to point that out to us, in Spanish.

We felt pretty dumb.
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
I never felt in imminent physical danger,
cause you were in a bleedin' car....you should have gotten out and walked around for a couple hours :D
 
FridgeMagnet said:
I'd say _not_ having street presence was the best way of avoiding any trouble. Don't look lost or indecisive, don't look at the scenery, just look like you know where you're going and you're on your way, you're just part of everyday life. Being black or white or hispanic in the wrong area is just an extra factor that can make you stand out.

eta: but of course in 99.99% of cases nobody cares anyway. Maybe you're an unusual sight in the area so they may look at you, but whatever.

When we're travelling, we stop, spill out of the car, and start gawking and pointing at everything around us. We're the quintessential google eyed tourists. Seems most people find it quaint; they're usually smiling.

Sometimes, street beggars will pick up on who we are, and come over. I've had guys try to sell me watches in the garment district of LA, and clothes at gas stations in Kansas City. Luckily, I come from a place where you learn how to deal effectively and pleasantly with that stuff, and it works on panhandlers in the US just like it does in Vancouver.

I bought a case of beer in Seattle once, and while walking down the street, this gang of scruffy looking white street types came up and asked for a beer. They felt a little bit menacing: maybe it's because they were white.

I said sorry man, I really need all these beers for myself. They laughed with understanding, and kept walking.
 
Detroit City said:
cause you were in a bleedin' car....you should have gotten out and walked around for a couple hours :D

I guess you missed the part about going into the markets etc.

I'll admit, however, that I wouldn't have gotten out of my car in East St. Louis. It's wrong that a place like that exists.
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
I'll admit, however, that I wouldn't have gotten out of my car in East St. Louis. It's wrong that a place like that exists.
you probably wouldn't get out of your car in the cass corridor in downtown detroit either....i know i wouldn't.

for a few years in the 70's that 2 mile square region had the highest murder rate in the N. America :D
 
Detroit City said:
you probably wouldn't get out of your car in the cass corridor in downtown detroit either....i know i wouldn't.

for a few years in the 70's that 2 mile square region had the highest murder rate in the N. America :D

Are they just shooting random people on the street, or is it bad drug deals etc?
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
Are they just shooting random people on the street, or is it bad drug deals etc?
it was a mix of everything.....just black angst i guess. did you ever see any of the blaxploitation films of the 1970s? sorta like that.
 
Detroit City said:
it was a mix of everything.....just black angst i guess. did you ever see any of the blaxploitation films of the 1970s? sorta like that.

Yeah, I did see those movies, and I thought that they were works of exploitative fiction, for the most part.
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
Yeah, I did see those movies, and I thought that they were works of exploitative fiction, for the most part.
they were works of exploitative fiction that were based in reality....:)
 
ska invita said:
On a recent trip to LA i asked the family i was staying with to drive through compton - just to see what the less glossy side of the town looked like.

No one I was staying with would agree even to drive through Compton - they said it just wasnt worth the risk.

I took this as over-fearful, but a number of people i talked to said that there are a few parts of town that are just no-go zones - even to drive through because of car jackings.

IS this really the case, and is this common across the big towns in the US, that there are real no go zones?

It put things into perspective for me - at least even in roughest parts of Britain I wouldnt feel that it wasnt safe to visit.
Given the current gang violence going on in Compton I would agree with your friends...Compton is currently a "no-go zone" I live in LA and while I don't live in a "dodgy" area now I lived in Venice for many years an area referred to as "Oakwood" nasty area, lots of street violence, street dealers, bad gang violence, etc. 19 murders (drive by shootings) in 1 year in a 2 mile square radius......you get the picture.

I've got no problem going to certain areas in South Central at any time of night and have never had a problem, but it's not an area you should be stumbling around in if you don't have some "street smarts". Drive by shootings are the "norm" here in LA, certain areas are best left alone.
 
Detroit City said:
cause you were in a bleedin' car....you should have gotten out and walked around for a couple hours :D
People don't realize how spread out LA is.....not an easy thing to just walk around in....if you live in LA a car is really a must....we have shit mass transit!
 
JoMo1953 said:
People don't realize how spread out LA is.....not an easy thing to just walk around in....if you live in LA a car is really a must....we have shit mass transit!
no, i meant gotten out of the car in Watts or Compton and walked around....
 
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