Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

US no-go zones

ska invita

back on the other side
On a recent trip to LA i asked the family i was staying with to drive through compton - just to see what the less glossy side of the town looked like.

No one I was staying with would agree even to drive through Compton - they said it just wasnt worth the risk.

I took this as over-fearful, but a number of people i talked to said that there are a few parts of town that are just no-go zones - even to drive through because of car jackings.

IS this really the case, and is this common across the big towns in the US, that there are real no go zones?

It put things into perspective for me - at least even in roughest parts of Britain I wouldnt feel that it wasnt safe to visit.
 
My sister went to LA a few years ago. The hostel she was staying at organised tours through Compton, a bit like a trip through a safari park was how she described it. Very sad.
 
There's a lot of excessive paranoia in the United States about areas like Compton. I'm not saying that such areas are places that you'd really want to stop for lunch, or walk through after dark (or even before dark, in some cases), but the idea that you're going to get strafed with gunfire just driving through is pretty silly.

I live in a city--Baltimore, Maryland--that perennially has one of the highest murder rates in the nation. There are parts of this city that really are very dangerous places. If you walk around those places, even during the day, there's a pretty decent chance that someone will stick a gun in your face and demand your wallet. This is especially likely if you obviously don't fit in, which, in the case of Baltimore's poorer neighborhoods, would generally apply to anyone who's not African American.

I guess it's also possible that you might run into trouble driving through those areas, but i've driven through them during the day and never encountered any trouble. I have gotten a few hard stares from people on the street, but while they don't exactly seem like friendly stares, they also don't look like they're about to jump into a car and chase me down with guns blazing. It always seemed like sort of a "What are you doing here? Just keep moving!" sort of stare.

The fact is that, while Baltimore is a violent city, a large majority of the murders and other violence tends to occur between people who know each other, and who have particular reasons for animosity. A lot of the murders are drug-related (Baltimore has a huge heroin problem), with drug dealers and gangs protecting turf. There are also neighborhood disputes that can escalate into violence and gunfire. Some people also get killed for talking to the police; there's a real culture of "don't snitch" in some Baltimore communities.

If you take a map of Baltimore and insert a pin for every murder, you'll find a few large concentrations in East Baltimore and West Baltimore, which are the poorest parts of the city. Most of the people in these neighborhoods are just poor folks trying to get by, but they often get caught up in the violence for no reason, or because they try to improve their neighborhoods. A few years ago, a family tried reporting drug activity to the police, and in retaliation their house was firebombed twice. The first time they got out; the second time both parents and their five children died in the blaze. Link

Over the past few years the city has averaged about 265-275 homicides a year in a population of about 680,000. By comparison, in the 12 months from June 2005 to June 2006, the UK had 765 murders in a population of over 50 million, and that number was inflated by the 52 victims of the London bombings in July 2005.

Of Baltimore's 275 homicides in 2006, 254 of the victims (and a similar percentage of the perpetrators) were African American, overwhelmingly men in the 16-30 years age group. Link We're on pace for about 305-310 murders this year.

If you don't live in the poorest neighborhoods, you have a pretty small chance of being killed. Your most likely encounter with crime would be getting held up on the street and told to give up your wallet and cellphone. And that happens in good neighborhoods and bad, because Baltimore is very much a city of relatively small neighborhoods, and poor neighborhoods often run right alongside wealthy ones.

I live near Johns Hopkins University, in a neighborhood populated mainly by college students and white middle class professional types in apartment buildings and medium-sized row houses. Here is a panorama (warning: uses Java plugin) of our street in winter. Just to the north of us is one of Baltimore's toniest and most expensive neighborhoods, with large freestanding homes on big leafy blocks of land. To the east is a relatively poor and working class black community. There is another similar neighborhood to the south, and over to the west is a poor black community and a working-class-but-rapidly-gentrifying white neighborhood.

If someone from one of the poorer communities decides that he needs to rob someone to get some money, he's most likely to go where the money is--the wealthier neighborhoods. There are usually one or two armed hold-ups a month within ten or fifteen blocks of my house. Last month, there was one about 20 metres from our front door. You have to be careful walking around alone at night, although the crime reports about these incidents suggest that if you calmly hand over your wallet or purse then you won't come to any further harm. They generally just want the money.

Anyway, i guess that all makes it sound like Baltimore is a scary place to live, but it's really not. If you let yourself get paranoid about this stuff, you'd never leave the house and would live a miserable life. It's true that you have to be a bit careful about walking around, and you need to be aware of your surroundings, but it's not like living in a war zone, as long as you're not confined by poverty to the very poor, very dangerous neighborhoods.

I guess that some of those places are a sort of no-go zone for a middle-class white guy like me, because i would stick out like a sore thumb and be likely to attract the attention of someone looking for trouble. Also, because those neighborhoods are so poor and run down, there's generally not much to attract people to them anyway. But i think it's worth remembering that, even in the poorest and most dangerous areas, the majority of people aren't criminals; they're just poor people doing their best to get by under very trying circumstances.
 
Fruitloop said:
Great post!
seconded - nice panorma too!

When in LA I was staying with a relative who works as an A&E nurse, and she was telling me some stories about all the (particularly hispanic) gang wounds she deals with. AS you say, street violence is so often "personal", and it is very unlikely that if your not involved you'll come to harm.

But I think what I found interesting was the difference between the US and the UK - I take on board the points you make in your post mhendo, and to a certain extent they can be applied to any city - except that the situation does seem to me to be so much more extreme in the states than here in Britain.

I think the US has greater poverty than we currently do in the UK (a perception, backed by some anecdotal evidence from US colleauges).

Certainly the US has little or no social safety net to help keep people out of desperate poverty. ANyone who has had to live on social security in the UK knows that its still a huge struggle to get by - but perhaps this is part of what distinguishes British cities to those in the US.

As your murder rate stats suggest, the US defintely does have areas that are pretty much no-go zones. Ive been to Istanbul a couple of years back and the same was true there. I am thankful that in Britain at least, for all our problems, we still have cities that havent become over ghettoised and in which we can all still live along side one another with some degree of safety.
 
ska invita said:
But I think what I found interesting was the difference between the US and the UK - I take on board the points you make in your post mhendo, and to a certain extent they can be applied to any city - except that the situation does seem to me to be so much more extreme in the states than here in Britain.

<snip>

As your murder rate stats suggest, the US defintely does have areas that are pretty much no-go zones. Ive been to Istanbul a couple of years back and the same was true there. I am thankful that in Britain at least, for all our problems, we still have cities that havent become over ghettoised and in which we can all still live along side one another with some degree of safety.
I think that's true in a lot of ways, especially when it comes to really dangerous, crime-ridden areas. There's really not much comparison between the really bad areas of the US and the really bad areas of the UK, and the presence of so many guns in the US (and a willingness to use them) has a lot to do with that, i think.

But, having lived in Britain for a couple of years, my own experience has been that what we might call casual, everyday violence is actually just as common in the UK as it is in the US, if not more common. What i mean by that is the level of violence in what might normally be considered "safe" places. I saw far more bar fights and common assaults in the UK than i've seen in six years of living in the US. And quite a lot of the assaults were unprovoked, simply hoodlums deciding to beat someone up, without even robbery as a motive, or some guy wanting to beat the crap out of someone who accidentally bumped into him on the floor of a nightclub.

Admittedly, this is merely anecdotal evidence, based on my own experience in cities like London, Doncaster, Sheffield, Manchester, Leeds, Penrith, and Newcastle. I don't know what the actual figures are for common assault in the UK and the US. But i've read enough threads on Urban about similar incidents to know that my experience was not unique (luckily, i only ever encountered this sort of violence as a third party, never as the victim). British violence is different to American violence in a lot of ways, but there's still more of it than there should be.
 
Hah, I lived in Baltimore for a while - my ex is from Dundalk - and none of that seems to contradict anything that I experienced.

I liked the city to be honest but I always had the "stranger" element in my favour - people were always a little surprised by my accent and behaviour and wouldn't have behaved in quite the same way if I'd been a native. Similarly, I wouldn't have noticed any subtle signs of menace that would be obvious to me here in London.

The social divisions did surprise me though with how geographically defined they were. There were literally roads on which this side is poor black, the other side is rich white. Sometimes there's the HQ of a major multinational, and across the street there are guys sitting on porches with a forty. And people really did avoid wandering across the boundaries, at least if they were driving - it's much easier to maintain this sort of division if you are driving everywhere. I understand it's a lot worse in areas which are more spread out, some of the stories I hear from Florida are appalling.

Generally, you know, real people would talk to anyone and hang about with anyone, though.
 
FridgeMagnet said:
I liked the city to be honest but I always had the "stranger" element in my favour - people were always a little surprised by my accent and behaviour and wouldn't have behaved in quite the same way if I'd been a native.
I think that's right. My Australian accent gets me some funny looks, and a lot of questions about the Crocodile Hunter. Also, i've learned that a lot of Americans can't distinguish Australian and English accents; i get asked quite frequently what part of England i'm from.
FridgeMagnet said:
The social divisions did surprise me though with how geographically defined they were. There were literally roads on which this side is poor black, the other side is rich white. Sometimes there's the HQ of a major multinational, and across the street there are guys sitting on porches with a forty.
That's still true. The medical campus of Johns Hopkins, which is one of the best and most prestigious hospitals in the world, is right in the middle of a very rough part of East Baltimore. Hopkins is the biggest employer in the city, and many of the people who work on the cleaning and janitorial and maintenance staff go home at night to those same poor Baltimore neighborhoods.
Dillinger4 said:
I am considering Johns Hopkins for a graduate program.
It's a great school, especially for graduate work. The proportion of grad students is much higher than at a lot of other schools, and the faculty really seem to focus a lot of their energy on graduate instruction. At least, that's been my experience in the humanities and social sciences side of things; i don't know too much about the sciences or engineering.

Also, the very thing that makes Baltimore so problematic also makes it a very good place for grad students--it's cheap. My partner and i, both grad students, rent a three-bedroom row house for $1300 a month, which is less than you'd pay for a small one-bedroom apartment in New York or Boston or Washington or San Francisco.
 
ska invita said:
IS this really the case, and is this common across the big towns in the US, that there are real no go zones?
yes, this truly is the case. mostly the "no-go" zones are where many poor minority people live.

there are many sections of Detroit proper that white people will not go to because those areas are almost 100% black.....and i'm sure you're aware of the history between blacks and whites in the US
 
Not sure about florida ,but ,definatly in New Orleans before the flood places were reccomended I stay out of drove through some of them when I got lost definatly got a vibe that it wasen't a place to linger .
 
mhendo said:
That's still true. The medical campus of Johns Hopkins, which is one of the best and most prestigious hospitals in the world, is right in the middle of a very rough part of East Baltimore. Hopkins is the biggest employer in the city, and many of the people who work on the cleaning and janitorial and maintenance staff go home at night to those same poor Baltimore neighborhoods.
A friend of mine lived in Washington DC and said that the White House is in a similiar situation - said washington was a dangerous city all round.
 
ska invita said:
A friend of mine lived in Washington DC and said that the White House is in a similiar situation - said washington was a dangerous city all round.
within 3 miles of the white house and capitol hill you can pick up a street-walking prostitues. literally in the shadow of the entire US govt. :D

you could probably buy an illegal handgun and some crack too
 
ska invita said:
A friend of mine lived in Washington DC and said that the White House is in a similiar situation - said washington was a dangerous city all round.
Washington is one of the cities that competes with Baltimore each year for the honour of highest murder rate per capita. It has some very dangerous areas, but it's certainly not dangerous "all round."

Baltimore is, as i said above, a city of neighborhoods, so it's something of a patchwork in terms of where the dangerous neighborhoods are. As FridgeMagnet noted above, there are places where wealthy and poor (or "good" and "bad") neighborhoods are right next to each other.

Washington is also a city very much divided by race and class, but the dividing line is much clearer and more defined than in Baltimore. Basically, the line runs in a diagonal slash across the city, from north-east to south-west. To the north-west of the line are the wealthy, white, "good" areas of town, and to the south-east of the line are the poor, black, "bad" areas of town. Obviously, like most arbitrary social and demographic boundaries, there are a few exceptions, but the city is divided in two much more neatly than a patchwork city like Baltimore.

In the wealthy parts of town, i've literally never felt unsafe or thought that there was anything to worry about. You can wander around places like Georgetown, Adams Morgan, DuPont Circles, Woodley Park etc. without a problem. Washington is, in many ways, a wealthy city, with a lot of government workers and NGO employees and lawyers and stuff making good salaries and living comfortable lives in the city or in the Maryland and Virginia suburbs.

The poorer neighborhoods tend to be concentrated in the eastern part of the city. The area around Capitol Hill is still pretty nice, although it's close enough to the bad areas that the crime level is fairly high. I've done quite a bit of my dissertation research at the Library of Congress, right behind the Capitol building, and i've always felt extremely safe there, during the day at least. Remember, too, that as the nation's capital, Washington is a sort of mecca for tourists from all over America, and the city does everything it can to keep the tourist areas (Capitol, White House, National Mall, etc.) clean and safe. The police presence in those areas is high (also for general security purposes, especially since 9/11), and not many problems occur.

Because of this, the problems tend to get confined to the poorer areas of town. A friend of mine, a guy who plays on my Sunday softball league here in Baltimore, is a fairly high-ranking cop in DC, in the Eastern part of the city, and he tells some pretty depressing stories of violence and crime. The poor neighborhoods of DC are very similar to the poor areas of Baltimore--mainly black, with a fair amount of gang- and drug-related violence.

It will be interesting to see what happens in those areas over the next few years, because the city is making a determined effort to gentrify some of them. The Washington Nationals, the city's major league baseball team, will next year move into a spanking new ballpark worth hundreds of millions of dollars, which is being built in south-east DC, on the Anacostia River, in what had generally been known as a pretty dangerous part of town. You can bet your life that the large influx of new businesses and of baseball fans (many of whom with be there to sit in expensive corporate boxes) will ensure a strong police and security presence in the area.
Detroit City said:
within 3 miles of the white house and capitol hill you can pick up a street-walking prostitutes. literally in the shadow of the entire US govt.

you could probably buy an illegal handgun and some crack too
Well, sure, but three miles is a long way in a densely-populated city.

I'll bet you could do all that within three miles of Buckingham Palace, or within three miles of the Golden Gate Bridge, or within three miles of the Sydney Opera House, too.
 
I spent a couple of years living in Windsor, Ontario, Canada, just across the border from Detroit.

We used to drive across the bridge, or through the tunnel all the time to see bands, to eat Mexican food, or just to buy cheap cigarettes and booze and to fill up on cheap gas.

Sometimes we'd take a wrong turn and end up driving through whole areas of town where all the houses were ruined and there were barely any streetlights or anything and it was as fucked-up looking as anything I've ever seen in any third world city. Even in the adjacent areas when we stopped and went to the store, it seemed like people were a little surprised to see white people there.

When you drove about 10-20 miles out of the city, it was like you'd crossed some invisible border and you started seeing nice houses, and lots of white people, it was like how I'd imagined South Africa was like under apartheid!

So I'd definitely say there's no-go areas in some US cities or what seem to be no-go - although saying that, we never had any trouble ever, and downtown Detroit itself was almost always trouble-free apart from when a friend of a friend got shot in the leg at a cashpoint.
 
FridgeMagnet said:
some of the stories I hear from Florida are appalling.
When we were there, in Sarasota, I saw one black family on main street, and even very few black workers in the bars, restaurants etc. I only saw black people when riding a bus back to the airport, when we drove through row after row after row of shacks with not a single white person around. 100% black and 100% extremely poor. A real eye-opener.
 
Yossarian said:
Sometimes we'd take a wrong turn and end up driving through whole areas of town where all the houses were ruined and there were barely any streetlights or anything and it was as fucked-up looking as anything I've ever seen in any third world city. Even in the adjacent areas when we stopped and went to the store, it seemed like people were a little surprised to see white people there.

When you drove about 10-20 miles out of the city, it was like you'd crossed some invisible border and you started seeing nice houses, and lots of white people, it was like how I'd imagined South Africa was like under apartheid!
100% spot on....I'd also like to add that DEtroit is the #1 most segregated major city in North America.
 
Detroit City said:
100% spot on....I'd also like to add that DEtroit is the #1 most segregated major city in North America.
Actually, it depends how you rank it. According to the most recent report on the issue by the US Census bureau, Detroit ranks first in 2 out of the 5 segregation indices, but ranks second overall in African American segregation, behind Milwaukee-Waukesha. Link

This is just a nitpick, though; the difference between the two cities in terms of overall segregation is negligible, and Detroit is certainly at or near the top in all racial segregation indices.
 
mhendo said:
Also, i've learned that a lot of Americans can't distinguish Australian and English accents

Lol...so true...I always get asked if I'm Australian!

Excellent posts by the way...very interesting.
 
ska invita said:
at least even in roughest parts of Britain I wouldnt feel that it wasnt safe to visit.


We will have to agree to disagree about that. I can think of several streets in various towns in Britain I would not visit even in daylight.
 
chymaera said:
We will have to agree to disagree about that. I can think of several streets in various towns in Britain I would not visit even in daylight.

Seconded. I would rather walk the streets of NY at 3am than the streets in certain parts of Cardiff, my home city!
 
Donna Ferentes said:
Three miles is a long way away in a large city.

Not so much in larger US cities to be honest. Once you leave the imediate downtown cluster, they tend to sprawl out very quickly.
 
Pie 1 said:
Not so much in larger US cities to be honest. Once you leave the imediate downtown cluster, they tend to sprawl out very quickly.
Well, sure, but the point was that any city, even a large one, can change very dramatically in the course of a three-mile journey out of the main downtown core.

Take any big city in America, and probably any big city in the world, and find the safest, most tourist-friendly part of the city. Now draw a circle with a radius of three miles from that place. I'll bet that, no matter which city you chose, somewhere within that circle you could find a hooker, buy hard drugs like crack cocaine or heroin, and find an illegal handgun. Even the almost-completely-gentrified cites like Manhattan and San Francisco still have areas where this would be the case.

Two of the most congenial, safest cities i've lived in are Sydney and Vancouver. In both those cities, i have no compunction about walking around late at night. Yet i could also tell you where to find hard drugs and weapons in both cities. And in both cities, the places where you can find that stuff are within about a mile of downtown.
 
Great posts, mhendo!
Ultimately, the question of a "no go" area is largely about individual levels of comfort and safety.

I grew up in New York City and have lived in Johannesburg, Washington DC, and San Francisco. I've also spent stretches in London, Nepal, Brazil, and Berlin. I have never prescribed any area of those places as off-limits for myself, though I certainly used discretion about when/how I travelled where. I am a young, small, white woman usually seen on a bicycle (though in Jo'burg I mostly traveled by car). Growing up in NY conditioned me to feel safe when there were people on the street, even if those people are not always folks I'd immediately invite round for tea.

Now I am living in Berlin and I find that, in this relatively safe and mellow city, there is a little part of my ride home from Prenzlauerberg/Friedrichshain to Neukölln that makes me anxious. It's a part where I have to get off my bike and walk over a little footbridge. The Spree is, of course, lovely and full of swans in the middle of the night; but in some ways I'd probably feel more comfortable breezing through an alley full of unsavory characters than I do carrying my bicycle over a deserted bridge surrounded by dark bushes at 4 am. And it must be said that I only feel funny about it when it's the middle of the night.

I lived for 4 years and change in an area in SF where you can easily find crack, heroin, and illegal handguns. And I always felt safe, even if I wished it didn't smell like piss in front of my door most of the time. If anything, the destitution and desperation of people in my neighborhood had more of an effect on my sense of emotional well being than it did on my physical safety.

edited to address all kinds of appalling grammar and spelling errors
 
D said:
...

Now I am living in Berlin and I find that, in this relatively safe and mellow city, there is a little part of my ride home from Prenzlauerberg/Friedrichshain to Neukölln that makes me anxious. It's a part where I have to get off my bike and walk over a little footbridge. The Spree is, of course, lovely and full of swans in the middle of the night; but in some ways I'd probably feel more comfortable breezing through an alley full of unsavory characters than I do carrying my bicycle over a deserted bridge surrounded by dark bushes at 4 am...

I think this is a culturally alienated type of sensation. That part of Berlin is typically European IMO even with the unsettling 'old East' still lingering close by. It's an area of Berlin I love. Fully understand why you feel a bit edgy, but I don't think it's relevant to the opening post of this thread.

Have you explored Planterwald yet?

Very, very, very unsettling :)
 
mhendo said:
I think that's right. My Australian accent gets me some funny looks, and a lot of questions about the Crocodile Hunter. Also, i've learned that a lot of Americans can't distinguish Australian and English accents; i get asked quite frequently what part of England i'm from.
most british/australians could not distinguish between an american accent or canadian accent either....
 
I go pretty much everywhere. I think the whole thing is overblown by tourists.

Part of being able to walk just about everywhere is attitude. If you have "street presence" you will be mostly left alone.
 
Back
Top Bottom