CyberRose
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So you don't see honour killings as a "real" problem faced by some women around the world that needs to be tackled?
US Muslim chops off wife's head
- Thread starter TomUS
- Start date
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
He was a schismatic Xtian, I believe.
CyberRose
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Erm so are you arguing that is IS ok to chop off womens' heads for religious reasons, or are you arguing that it is NOT ok to chop womens' heads off for religious reasons?
ohmyliver
poppin' like a cork
ooops, sorry mister...
Why wasn't the murder of Victoria Climbié framed as 'Christian couple murder child' then?
Honour killing is a cultural practice, not a specifically Islamic practice. This is why the problem exists within Sikh, Hindu, and (to a lesser extent) Eastern European communities.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
I've made this point many times, but I usually find that the other person isn't really that interested in the truth and is seeking to make a tendentious point about Muslims and Islam generally.
CyberRose
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How news stories are reported is nothing to do with me. If you want to label that a Christian fundamentalist killing that's fine by me, because in my mind it probably was. Why isn't the word "Christian" in the headline? Or more specifically, why does the word "Muslim" appear in Islamic religious killings? That, is probably down to prejudice
Nobody is saying it's a specifically Islamic practice. Also, many women are killed in relationships that have nothing to do with religion, but might very well be classed as "honour killings". Also, nobody is saying that honour killings are in inherent part of Islam.
However, in cases of Islamic honour killings, religious beliefs are used as a justification to kill these women. The same religious beliefs are used as an excuse to take away the rights of women through their life as well. If you have any belief in equal rights for women, you wouldn't, as nino does, make excuses for ANY type of honour killing no matter what culture it occurred in.
Women have the right to not have to put up with relationships like this, and these kind of beliefs that men can treat women however they see fit because their religion oks it should be challenged by everyone believes in womens' rights.
People like nino only help in consolidating these crimes, because they excuse them and accuse people who are against them of being racist (which is rich coming from someone who hates English people and hates Christians but hey)
Why do different types of honour killings get separated out? Because all cultures are different and the way of dealing with this problem in one culture will be different from dealing with it in another culture
Tell me - are womens' rights organisations racist for opposing honour killings?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Does Islam constitute part of peoples culture? If so, why are certain peple seeking to make a clean differentiation between the two and put all the bad stuff on culture?
CyberRose
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It's because criticising anything Islamic is racist, so in order to criticise something in Islamic culture they do not agree with, they have to separate the "Islamic" bit out of it (which then allows them to make a criticism of all religions, not just Islam, and win points in the middle class competition to see who can be the most liberal and enlightened)
Obviously this does not apply to all religions. Take, for example, the thread a few places below this one, where, rightly, Christian creationists are being ridiculed. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but if somebody started a thread saying Muslims were stupid for also believing in creationism, and criticising Islamic schools, then they would be a racist (and if middle class liberals fear ANYTHING, it is the fear of being labelled racist)
ohmyliver
poppin' like a cork
Tell me, have I ever said that criticism of Islam is racist?
Tell me, have I ever said that womens' rights organisations are racist for opposing honour killings?
I have said that seeing religion as the route cause (as your statement "But if it was an honour killing then that would suggest a cultural problem related to the man's religious beliefs" leads me to think you do. If I'm wrong then, sorry) isn't actually that factually correct, and b: is part of the narrative that creates a dangerous 'them and us' based on the problematic history of Western Christianity and the easten 'other' (wether it be Jews, Muslims, or even the Eastern Orthodox churches).
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
In backward (there i said it) patriarchal cultures really existing islam often functions as a support and legitimating device for patriarchal relations. Simplistic models of culture on one side and religion on the other are not only wrong, but they can actively harm those who are fighting back against this patriarchal culture by removing from the field of criticism one of the main support struts for that sort of society - and by stigmatising those who do make those criticims as racists or somehow dodgy. Here's another narrative that creates a them and us.
(Not that i see why creating situations of them and us is such a problem).
(Not that i see why creating situations of them and us is such a problem).
CyberRose
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I don't understand why you're having a go at me for criticising honour killings then?
You had a go at me for "singling" Islam out (despite the thread concerning a Muslim man who, allegedly, cut his wife's head off)
Can you please tell me what exactly your problem is with my posts?
ohmyliver
poppin' like a cork
All the Abrahamic religions are patriarchal, and have been used to ideologically prop up patriarchal societies.
Obviously culture and religion is entwined. But I don't see how demonising the religion helps. Religion is often like a rock casting a cultural shadow, but to focus on the rock, rather than the shadow isn't helpful. *eta* are Muslim women's groups who don't see their belief as a barrier to their work for women's rights incorrect then?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Why not the rock ( as well)? Esp as you've just give it the primary role.
CyberRose
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Like I said, nobody is trying to demonise the religion. Nobody is saying honour killings is "typical" of all Muslims. The fact is, it happens in some communities and is also tied in to the oppression of women in those communities. That is something that needs to change and something any sane person should support. But some people are more concerned about being called racist that challenging certain beliefs and practices they disagree with...
Erm can you point me to any Muslim womens' rights groups who agree with honour killings?!
ohmyliver
poppin' like a cork
because it's not the rock that people operate within, it's the shadows cast by it.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
It's the rock (using your model) that sets the contexts within which people operate.
CyberRose
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Jesus what's with all the rock and shadow metaphors?! It's making my head hurt!
If I understand it right, LIKE I KEEP SAYING, nobody is criticising the "rock" (altho I have no problem with blanket criticisms of all religions as I think they're all daft, but of course, when one is singled out over the other, like what Geert Wilders is doing in his film, then that's likely to be based on prejudice)
If I understand it right, LIKE I KEEP SAYING, nobody is criticising the "rock" (altho I have no problem with blanket criticisms of all religions as I think they're all daft, but of course, when one is singled out over the other, like what Geert Wilders is doing in his film, then that's likely to be based on prejudice)
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Destroy the rock, let the light in.
Yuwipi Woman
Whack-A-Mole Queen
I note that when that mad canadian beheaded a fellow bus passenger, his religion didn't get mentioned at all
I don't recall him starting a television station with the intent of dispelling religious stereotypes. If he did then it would be relevant.
If some fundamentalist Christian television evangelist gets caught soliciting gay sex in a bathroom, then its relevant.
If you position yourself and some sort of spokesman for your religion, as this gentleman did, then any bad acts you commit are going to reflect back.
One consistant rule for everyone, please.
CyberRose
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I don't recall anyone saying Muslims were the only cruel people in the world?
What I don't understand is why certain Muslims who commit certain acts because of some twisted religious belief are above criticism, yet if the perpetrator were Jewish or Christian they're fair game?
If only the act they committed gets criticised (and the twisted beliefs they follow), and not taken to be a reflection of all members of that religion, I really don't see what the problem is?
panpete
Blokes name, birds body.
Yuwipi Woman
Whack-A-Mole Queen
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
yeah its' not known as the christian news network for nuttin is it...
are there other sources for this story though...
ps i know it's cable news network ffs
CyberRose
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Never heard it called that before, but heard plenty call it the Communist news network because of its perceived liberal bias...
Ever heard of Google News?
"Muslim beheading" gives you 984 results. Why not compare the BBC story with the CNN one before moaning about Christian bias?
Thank you TomUS for posting the CNN link. I probably would have missed the story otherwise. It's an important story because the murderer founded a TV station in the wake of 9/11 (something the Beeb fails to mention) to improve the US perception of muslims.
Here's an interesting Pakistani take on the story, which points out that Islam does not condone domestic violence: http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-n.../Islamic-TV-owner-charged-with-beheading-wife.
I'd like to read Al Jazeera's version but they don't seem to have covered it.
aye. someone down the pub started to tell me about this, but i had to close my ears cos i couldn't deal with any sad/distressing/angering news.
bloody people
Yuwipi Woman
Whack-A-Mole Queen
yeah its' not known as the christian news network for nuttin is it...
are there other sources for this story though...
ps i know it's cable news network ffs
You really need to get your facts straight. It's one of the more liberal news network, often referred by the Republicans as "the communist news network."
Yuwipi Woman
Whack-A-Mole Queen
This is exactly why the religion of the suspect is relevant. If you put yourself out there as a paragon and don't live up to it, you should expect people to mention this. It matters just as much if the suspect is muslim as it does if he's a christian. How many threads have we had giggling about some fundamentalist christian who has fucked up?
Like my grandma used to say "if you stick your head up, don't be suprised if someone lops it off."
<getting my coat>
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