US Marines Massscred Iraqi Civilians.

[Yuwipi Woman]

E2A; referring to Yw's last post
we can, but it won't do much good....
cem, YW and AB have a point, tho' i'm surprised to see such 'class-war'ing from the citizens of a nation which rogue Yam assures us doesn't HAVE a class system!
It's the workers who are being used, and sacrificed here.

If we don't have a class system then why do we have terms like "trailer park trash"? And yes, we have a class war on. The upperclass started it when they started rolling back wages and benefits for their low end workers.

I don't think that killing US soldiers is the best way to end the war. The best way to end it is to stop using foreign oil. Develop alternative energy sources and you won't have to have wars in oil producing countries.

 

[cemertyone]

E2A; referring to Yw's last post
we can, but it won't do much good....
cem, YW and AB have a point, tho' i'm surprised to see such 'class-war'ing from the citizens of a nation which rogue Yam assures us doesn't HAVE a class system!
It's the workers who are being used, and sacrificed here.

I knew that Yam Yam gezzer was an American ( not that thats a bad thing by the way i`ve met some lovely yanks in my time) but he wouldn`t admit it to me.I could just tell by his refusal to countenence any critism of either Bush or Sharon....bless him..

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

I knew that Yam Yam gezzer was an American ( not that thats a bad thing by the way i`ve met some lovely yanks in my time) but he wouldn`t admit it to me.I could just tell by his refusal to countenence any critism of either Bush or Sharon....bless him..

There have been times that I was convinced he was a brit working in the US. He walked on using briticisms that no american would use. On the other hand, perhaps I just don't want to have to claim that numb nut.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Ok. are you now telling me that the US troops there in Iraq are all there because of the " economic situation" they found themselves in vis a vi their domestic positions in the US?

Yes, some American kids join up because they see the military as offering them a "good career" and they can "make something of themselves" rather than flipping burgers in McD's. PLus their families usually see it as being a good thing and regardless of what we think there is some 'respectibility' in being in the forces. Daft in my view........

Whislt i understand that many of these guys are their because the US military offered them free schooling/university places and then bang Iraq came along and they where compelled to go.That fails to take into account that the vast majority of US service personell there are reservists who (mostly) where in full-time employment back in the US. how can you square that?

Well they are a different type of people, no doubt many heeded the "call to arms" after 9/11 and joined up to defend their country, but probably never thought they'd end up losing their arms, legs, jobs and wives whilst in Iraq. Stupid maybe, but Im not sure Id want to see them dead.

I've no doubt that there are plenty of people who joined the US military who are not exactly the sort of people you'd want to know, but then there's plenty more who are the sort of folk you'd sit and have a beer with in a bar. I dunno, its easy to label and stigmatise people, but when you're put in a position where it's your life at stake who is to say what you would do.

Im not condoning, just trying to understand.

 

[Binkie]

I blame the system.

 

[angry bob]

On the other hand, perhaps I just don't want to have to claim that numb nut.

 

[dylanredefined]

Did they do it though ?The Iraq police are not the most reliable orgnisation
and certainly blaming the Americans for everything goes down well.
Either the marines shot everyone delibertly in an act of murder . Or shot anything that moved and cleared rooms with grenades because they didnt care if civilians were there .(not sure which is worse) or there was a firefight
and civilians got caught in it .
Guess we have to wait for the investigations but it is not looking good for the usmc .

 

[nino_savatte]

If we don't have a class system then why do we have terms like "trailer park trash"? And yes, we have a class war on. The upperclass started it when they started rolling back wages and benefits for their low end workers.

I don't think that killing US soldiers is the best way to end the war. The best way to end it is to stop using foreign oil. Develop alternative energy sources and you won't have to have wars in oil producing countries.

Ah, the "upper class" who are really the ruling class. There are two types of ruling class in the US: the landed families and their auld money and the political-industrial dynasties like the Bush-Pierce's, the Kennedys (criminal-political), the Rockefellers and the Tafts. They all believe they are somehow divinely chosen to lead by virtue of their financial power.

It's a form of legitimised gangsterism. Ending the dependency on oil would be a start, since it was the greed of petrocrats and their militarist allies (themselves tied to the M-I complex, which is the economic driver of this and all the other wars) that got us here.

 

[angry bob]

I don't think that killing US soldiers is the best way to end the war. The best way to end it is to stop using foreign oil. Develop alternative energy sources and you won't have to have wars in oil producing countries.

That and get over this idea that the american way is the best and only way. This whole neocon idea of spreading democracy is a fool's errand. Though I've met decent neocons in the past who genuinely believe in the ideals. They're not all just after the oil and nor are they all idiots who believe what Bush tells them to. I still think they're wrong though.

 

[angry bob]

Did they do it though ?The Iraq police are not the most reliable orgnisation
and certainly blaming the Americans for everything goes down well.
Either the marines shot everyone delibertly in an act of murder . Or shot anything that moved and cleared rooms with grenades because they didnt care if civilians were there .(not sure which is worse) or there was a firefight
and civilians got caught in it .
Guess we have to wait for the investigations but it is not looking good for the usmc .

The second option seems more likely. They're in an impossible situation without the adequate training and they are scared.

As many bad things a US troops have done I'm not ready to believe that they are executing small children.

 

[frogwoman]

That and get over this idea that the american way is the best and only way. This whole neocon idea of spreading democracy is a fool's errand. Though I've met decent neocons in the past who genuinely believe in the ideals. They're not all just after the oil and nor are they all idiots who believe what Bush tells them to. I still think they're wrong though.

Good post.

 

[nino_savatte]

That and get over this idea that the american way is the best and only way. This whole neocon idea of spreading democracy is a fool's errand. Though I've met decent neocons in the past who genuinely believe in the ideals. They're not all just after the oil and nor are they all idiots who believe what Bush tells them to. I still think they're wrong though.

It's an idea that has it's roots in Gladstone's notions of the Empire as a means for 'enlightening' and 'civilising' the world. I often refer to it as the "clothes and Christianity" approach. The basic principle is nonetheless the same: spread your ideas around the world and if they aren't accepted by the intended recipients, then find a way to force it upon them.

 

[Binkie]

The Americans didn't invent Imperialism. Their small ruling class(es) just haven't yet found any better way to defend and expand their power. Blaming the grunts won't help either.

 

[Squatticus]

Umm, the problem with that is that a) some of the soldiers really are just working class lads who don't really know any better...

Don't know any better than shooting handcuffed prisoners in the head? Blimey, talk about the permissive society!

 

[Binkie]

"Jes doin' a job".

 

[frogwoman]

Don't know any better than shooting handcuffed prisoners in the head? Blimey, talk about the permissive society!

erm, that wasn't what i meant ... i meant signing up to the army in the first place.

and i despise the fucking neocons in the US government as much as anyone.

 

[angry bob]

Don't know any better than shooting handcuffed prisoners in the head? Blimey, talk about the permissive society!

That has not been demonstrated. Until it has I choose to believe that US soldiers did not handcuff and execute a 2 year old child. I hope to god that I am right.

 

[Kaka Tim]

The second option seems more likely. They're in an impossible situation without the adequate training and they are scared.

As many bad things a US troops have done I'm not ready to believe that they are executing small children.

Mai Lai?

They are capable of anything. Not becaseu they are 'evil amercans' but becasue this is how foriegn armies always behave in hostile territory - the civilians come to be seen as 'enemy' and subhuman ('gooks' 'sand niggers'). Collective punishment, indiscriminate use of force, torture, death squads etc become common practice. Barbarity, terrorism and cruelty (especially in controlling their own population ) are also distingushing features of insurgent movements. Algeria, Vietnam, Palastine, Afghansitan, Ireland - same pattern just a difference in degree. Thats what war does innit?

And killing american soldiers is an effective way of ending the occupation. I would say domestic pressure for an end to the war would be unstopable if the US death rate got anywhere near vietnam levels. You may not like it but its true.

 

[Streathamite]

If we don't have a class system then why do we have terms like "trailer park trash"? And yes, we have a class war on. The upperclass started it when they started rolling back wages and benefits for their low end workers.

I don't think that killing US soldiers is the best way to end the war. The best way to end it is to stop using foreign oil. Develop alternative energy sources and you won't have to have wars in oil producing countries.

agreed entirely on every point. OF COURSE I think you have a class sytem, it's just i've met so many seps (not just neocons either, interestingly) for whom the categorical denial of ANY class system seems such a primal article of faith, that it's a welcome surprise to find the equally emphatic acknowledgement of it.
I apologise to you and AB for even tentatively bracketing you for ecothrowbacks like Rogue Yam!

 

[rogue yam]

The best way to end it is to stop using foreign oil. Develop alternative energy sources and you won't have to have wars in oil producing countries.

I don't know how old you are but leftist dipsticks have been repeating this mantra since the early 1970s if not longer. Wishing doesn't affect the laws of physics or the principles of economics. Oil is far, far cheaper than any other alternative resource. So long as this is true, and it will clearly be true for at least several more decades no matter what the hippies might wish, there will be huge wealth and thus high tension, if not wars, in oil-producing countries.

 

[rogue yam]

Did they do it though ?The Iraq police are not the most reliable orgnisation
and certainly blaming the Americans for everything goes down well.
Either the marines shot everyone delibertly in an act of murder . Or shot anything that moved and cleared rooms with grenades because they didnt care if civilians were there .(not sure which is worse) or there was a firefight
and civilians got caught in it .
Guess we have to wait for the investigations but it is not looking good for the usmc .

There are other possibilities as well, which you don't list. What is interesting is how quickly the losers on this site embrace the least likely one.

 

[rogue yam]

Collective punishment, indiscriminate use of force, torture, death squads etc become common practice.

If this is common practice then why have a thread full of outrage over an undocumented example of more of the same? Sounds like "caca" to me.

 

[snadge]

If this is common practice then why have a thread full of outrage over an undocumented example of more of the same? Sounds like "caca" to me.

there is plenty of news feeds reporting it, not many US ones though

The rest of the world though.

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

I don't know how old you are but leftist dipsticks have been repeating this mantra since the early 1970s if not longer. Wishing doesn't affect the laws of physics or the principles of economics. Oil is far, far cheaper than any other alternative resource. So long as this is true, and it will clearly be true for at least several more decades no matter what the hippies might wish, there will be huge wealth and thus high tension, if not wars, in oil-producing countries.

Warning. You will NOT understand the following information:

Economics is subsidiary to energy.

You probably won't ever comprehend this fact before you wheeze out your final fetid freeper breath, but I thought I'd give you a chance. See. I'm nice, really.

 

[rogue yam]

Warning. You will NOT understand the following information:

Economics is subsidiary to energy.

You probably won't ever comprehend this fact before you wheeze out your final fetid freeper breath, but I thought I'd give you a chance. See. I'm nice, really.

Do you live in Berkeley? If not, you should.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

I don't know how old you are but leftist dipsticks have been repeating this mantra since the early 1970s if not longer. Wishing doesn't affect the laws of physics or the principles of economics. Oil is far, far cheaper than any other alternative resource. So long as this is true, and it will clearly be true for at least several more decades no matter what the hippies might wish, there will be huge wealth and thus high tension, if not wars, in oil-producing countries.

You are correct in concluding that I'm older (aka "more mature" ) than you.

If the powers that be had finished what was started in the mid-70s we wouldn't be in the mess we are in. My last car got double the gas milage than the one I replaced it with despite the fact that I car hunted for eight months. I finally had to go with a product that didn't suit my needs because after 200K a car tends to wear out. I doubt that the physics of energy have changed, so it must be the priorities to the manufacturers haven't expanded to meet demands for better fuel efficiency. Too bad for them, as it looks like manufacturers who have heeded this damand are pulling ahead in the market. Fuel efficiency is good for business so is taking care of the environment.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Economics is subsidiary to energy.

Yes it is.

 

[snadge]

the thing that makes me laugh about yank cars compared to european and far eastern cars is the sheer outdatedness of them, the wallowy suspension, the lack of power v engine size, the shoddiness of the build, the ridiculous fuel consumption figures yet seppoes refuse to buy anything else, why.

and why is deisel fuel so expensive compared to petrol over there?

 

[Streathamite]

There are other possibilities as well, which you don't list. What is interesting is how quickly the losers on this site embrace the least likely one.

is there even the slightest chance that one day, at some distant point, you might possibly have, y'know, grown up enough, to actually learn how to post purely about the issue at hand without flinging, prepubescent insults around manically? gosh wouldn't that be FAB!

 

[rogue yam]

I doubt that the physics of energy have changed, so it must be the priorities to the manufacturers haven't expanded to meet demands for better fuel efficiency. Too bad for them, as it looks like manufacturers who have heeded this damand are pulling ahead in the market. Fuel efficiency is good for business so is taking care of the environment.

The amount of energy in a gallon of gasoline is the same as before. There were great advances in the 1970s and 1980s in fuel-use efficiency but these advances cannot be sustained indefinitely. Eventually you approach hard limits.