US Imperialism has peaked - the only way left to go is down...

[Idris2002]

And don't forget the overthrow of Mossadeq, which put the Shah on the throne, making Khomeini possible.

As for the yanks killing all 'round them in Iraq, well, as Terence MacSwiney said it is not those who can inflict the most but those who can endure the most who will triumph.

 

[Streathamite]

Uh, dude. Do you mean like Muqtada al-Sadr's Mahdi Army? We spanked those monkeys like errant schoolboys. The carnage was so one-sided that the Iraqi media were coming to the CENTCOM daily briefings in tears, "When will you stop killing so many Iraqis?!?"

you really do know how to get the wrong end of a one-ended stick, don't you?
The Iraq conflict is NOT a conventional war, fought against a conventional enemy; it is a guerrilla conflict, and therefore is genuinely about 'hearts and minds'. your problem is when you 'spanked those monkeys' (I do not appreciate your racism, btw), you also 'spanked' every civilian in your path. just about every single US action in Iraq has made you even more unpopular with the Iraqi people - and that's hard. In other words, you create a whole generation of willing martyrs every time you 'kick ass'.
And - as Bernie pointed out - the mindset of these people is that they are supremely willing martyrs. How do you intimidate people who willingly embrace their own deaths for what they see as a glorious cause?

 

[Ae589]

I don't belive for a minute it has peaked. US Imperialism is not a national one, its through it's culture (which I enjoy through films and music, though not through cuisine and language) and it's companies.

 

[Streathamite]

....well, and through its' military and political influence, and via proxy states (e.g. Israel).

 

[kyser_soze]

I think the central premise of the statement is essentially flawed - it implies that the US Empire and the US itself is the same as other historical imperialists, when it isn't. The vast bulk of the US 'empire' is carried forth by it's corporations and culture, not military force (altho they are often backed by the implicit threat of that force being deployed); by the continuing dispersal of the basic meme-types of US/European enlightenment thinking about democracy, parliaments, freedom of speech etc; by the development of space based weapons platforms;

*notes that Ae589 has made the same point*

Damn.

I think maybe it shows the affect the modern media has on compressing people's timescales for events - most Empires have had difficult occupations/campaigns in their histories that havven't bought them down, and it's also worth pointing out that all these previous Empires were able to behave with absolute impunity toward the populations they were oppressing, something the US simply cannot do. I mean it's attempted to (Fallujah for example) but knows that in the world media court such behaviour is ultimately untenable politically from a PR perspective. Were the US able to behave in the true model of an imperialist power Iraq would be a very different story altogether, as would Vietnam.

 

[fela fan]

....well, and through its' military and political influence, and via proxy states (e.g. Israel).

Well yeah, between the two of you: their empire, and that's exactly what it is, extends via military, industrial (inc political), and cultural influences.

That to me is the first time three influences prevail in establishing and extending an empire. No doubt due in no small part to the role of television and cinema.

But, it seems that they are crumbling from within, and most empires go after overreach, or plain greed if you like. They in effect beat themselves. I reckon that's been advanced quite some way under five years of bush, with three more to come unless they bung him in a court where he belongs.

It's why we got him, he is here to show us the abyss... from whence we pull back and gain a juster world. The only difference between bush and his predecessors is that bush told the world he didn't give a fuck, he'd do anything if he felt it would advance the cause of the USA, like they were the only country in the world or something. And then did it. The others pretended, bush just did away with the pretence that the US are a force for freedom and good in the world.

They've been for years the biggest rogue nation on the planet, yet due to misconceptions by large parts of the world, in particular fellow developed nations, they were often seen as a force for providing democracies to nations run by nasty dictators.

Bush exposed all that as a pack of lies, simply by sticking two fingers up to the world and saying all manner of incredulous things while in power. He may well have acted as a catalyst for the end of their hegemony.

 

[Streathamite]

what i think kyser and AE589 are getting it is that the US's is not a formal empire, in the way that - say - the British empire was. british colonies were effectively governed from Whitehall, via governors-general, Viceroys etc. And whilst british private interests made a simply huge amount of money out of plundering the colonies' (natural resources, agriculture etc), the crown faced a similarly large admin bill, which - ultimately - simply proved too big to bear.
The US has no such suzerainty; afghanistan (eg) has its' own govt, as does uzbekistan. the stars 'n' bars ain't flying over (say) port-au-prince.
however, i do not see this as the only type of empire. What surely counts is the degree of indfluence/control/hegemony a nation can exert over the affairs, destinies etc of other nations.
going by that yardstick, the US surely has an empire

 

[Streathamite]

They are all cut from the same cloth. Lotsa passion and verbiage, little skill or hardware. After the remnants of Mookie's monkeys went slinking off, the remainder have been decidedly demure. Please tell me that they are waiting for just the right moment to pounce! LOL!

bearing in mind that it took 19 people armed with nothing more sinister than boltcutters to send your entire nation into a tailspin four years ago, how much 'hardware' would they actually need?
and how did the 2000+ US Army fatalities in iraq happen? lousy driving?
ETA: like most neocon sep posters, you cannot think in any but the most simplistic terms amd methods, the one on show here being driven by the John wayne movie running on endless loop in your head. the one that says if you 'kick turrst ass' hard enough, and show enough overwhelming force, then all thes insurgents, and all these willing suicide bombers, will fall before it.

It ain't worked elsewjhere in the mulsim and arab worlds, it ain't working in Iraq, and it won't work elsewhere

You fail to see the picture from the insurgents' point of view - and fail to appreciate how the instability and volatility of the m/east, plus the depths of desperation to which these people feel driven, combine to ensure that your displays of indiscriminate, brute violence merely begets further violence in response.

 

[kyser_soze]

the US surely has an empire

Not disagreeing mate - the US has what has been variously desribed as a virtual, distributed, nodal, point of presence and a dozen other adjectives style of empire.

What's also interesting is that it's important to see how this empire, discreet as it is, is played at home because long term polls in the US indicate that US citizens don't want to be an 'imperial' power in the historical mold of Britain, France etc.

I've read in at least one place that the best contemporary mirror of the US is the RC church which also leads a massive 'dominion' through it's corporations (the local RC churches) and cultural methods (religion) - it's power is more...dammit what's the word...temporal? You get what I mean.

 

[X-77]

Violence runs right through the american pyshce.

nooooo! don't start all that america-bashing...The vast majority of Americans HATE Bush's guts and the grassroots anti-war movement over there is growing by the day!!

 

[Rentonite]

Oww you silly boys blabing on again.
Kinda missing something big..........
The only reason we are no occupying Iran is that we have chosen not to.
the only reason we havent completly nuteralized (leveled) most opposition filled cities is that we are trying use the least amount of force possible.
If We choose to fight there in the gulf with our full might and power our troubles would be over there very quickly.
I have great hope for Iraq
I know all the anti Americans Want there to be as much death and destruction to the people in Iraq as possible.
that way they can complain!
The 800lb gorilla that no one wants to notice in the equasion is ............
What if We quit careing what others felt about what we do?
Mmmmmm
See
all We have to do is ignore all the vapid yapping complaints about this or that,
the complainers are all the same folks any way (meaning the complaining is what is important not the subject being complained about)

I still think that eventualy we will have to conqure the people in the gulf to get them to leave us alone.

They will not stop, why would they?

And Why should We?

and as far as "imperialism" well, gosh I wish we could do that but we dont.
I know you Want America to be All bad...
Sorry...........

 

[chilango]

Oww you silly boys blabing on again.
Kinda missing something big..........
The only reason we are no occupying Iran is that we have chosen not to.
the only reason we havent completly nuteralized (leveled) most opposition filled cities is that we are trying use the least amount of force possible.
If We choose to fight there in the gulf with our full might and power our troubles would be over there very quickly.
I have great hope for Iraq
I know all the anti Americans Want there to be as much death and destruction to the people in Iraq as possible.
that way they can complain!
The 800lb gorilla that no one wants to notice in the equasion is ............
What if We quit careing what others felt about what we do?
Mmmmmm
See
all We have to do is ignore all the vapid yapping complaints about this or that,
the complainers are all the same folks any way (meaning the complaining is what is important not the subject being complained about)

I still think that eventualy we will have to conqure the people in the gulf to get them to leave us alone.

They will not stop, why would they?

And Why should We?

and as far as "imperialism" well, gosh I wish we could do that but we dont.
I know you Want America to be All bad...
Sorry...........

I hope this is poor quality satire?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Well yes. Genocide certainly is one way of solving your counter-insurgency problems.

 

[rennie]

I hope this is poor quality satire?

it ain't funny.

 

[chilango]

it ain't funny.

Hence "poor quality".

 

[Streathamite]

I hope this is poor quality satire?

nooooo chilango! don't feed the fruitloop!
he's just a site feature - a tobyjug for the terminally deranged!

 

[nick1181]

Yea - but it is an symptom of a declining empire. Imagine if this was Ancient Rome - what would the apologists be like? Incisive intellectuals or shouty, semi-literate obsessives with an unhealthy relationship with reality?

 

[kyser_soze]

Probably both, truth be told.

Nice anti-Americna rant from Fela I see...

 

[Streathamite]

What's also interesting is that it's important to see how this empire, discreet as it is, is played at home because long term polls in the US indicate that US citizens don't want to be an 'imperial' power in the historical mold of Britain, France etc.

too right they don't - the irony about the current situation is that the US was founded on explicitly anti-imperialist principles, as a break with britain. Indeed, the distance between the rebels propagandist literature in the 1760s and 1770s reads like a late Georgian Whig version of the sort of thing che-worshipping anti-colonial movements used to spout in the 1960s and 1970s.
In fact, I can think of no nation before the USA founding its' state, in writing, on an uncompromisingly anti-imperial basis

 

[ViolentPanda]

Oww you silly boys blabing on again.
Kinda missing something big..........
The only reason we are no occupying Iran is that we have chosen not to.
the only reason we havent completly nuteralized (leveled) most opposition filled cities is that we are trying use the least amount of force possible.
If We choose to fight there in the gulf with our full might and power our troubles would be over there very quickly.
I have great hope for Iraq
I know all the anti Americans Want there to be as much death and destruction to the people in Iraq as possible.
that way they can complain!
The 800lb gorilla that no one wants to notice in the equasion is ............
What if We quit careing what others felt about what we do?
Mmmmmm
See
all We have to do is ignore all the vapid yapping complaints about this or that,
the complainers are all the same folks any way (meaning the complaining is what is important not the subject being complained about)

I still think that eventualy we will have to conqure the people in the gulf to get them to leave us alone.

They will not stop, why would they?

And Why should We?

and as far as "imperialism" well, gosh I wish we could do that but we dont.
I know you Want America to be All bad...
Sorry...........

Wow, that was a particularly long bout of verbal diarrhoea, even for someone such as yourself who always speaks out of their arsehole.

 

[rogue yam]

In your dreams.

bearing in mind that it took 19 people armed with nothing more sinister than boltcutters to send your entire nation into a tailspin four years ago, how much 'hardware' would they actually need?

This "tailspin" of your fondest dreams lasted about 18 hours, tops. Since then, it's been a cavalcade of buttwhippin's, which is why you lot are so blue. The "lamentations of their women" indeed! Yes, we had our guard down after eight years of cigars and bongos, and Hadji stepped up and made us pay for our inattention, but we won't be so distracted again for a long, long time (if ever). Get used to your despair.

It ain't worked elsewjhere in the mulsim and arab worlds, it ain't working in Iraq, and it won't work elsewhere .

The facts on the ground say otherwise. Talk to the Iraqis lining up to join their security forces. Observe the Iraqis informing on the terrorists in their midst. Hear the laughter and cheers as Iraqis greet American servicemen on their way to the polls. That's what freedom looks like!

You fail to see the picture from the insurgents' point of view - and fail to appreciate how the instability and volatility of the m/east, plus the depths of desperation to which these people feel driven, combine to ensure that your displays of indiscriminate, brute violence merely begets further violence in response.

We understand perfectly the desperation of the oppressed. That is why we are so confident in the transformative power of freedom! It is only the decadent who regard our use of force as indiscriminate. The Iraqis know better.

 

[sleaterkinney]

The facts on the ground say otherwise. Talk to the Iraqis lining up to join their security forces. Observe the Iraqis informing on the terrorists in their midst. Hear the laughter and cheers as Iraqis greet American servicemen on their way to the polls. That's what freedom looks like!

Seriously, is this guy for real?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Seriously, is this guy for real?

If he is I feel sorry for his shrink.

 

[rogue yam]

In fact, I can think of no nation before the USA founding its' state, in writing, on an uncompromisingly anti-imperial basis

Before the U.S., was their any nation founded in writing on any basis? Which nations have been so founded since?

 

[snadge]

Before the U.S., was their any nation founded in writing on any basis? Which nations have been so founded since?

we have a constitution you know, and it's far older than yours, most european countries do as well, come to think of it......

 

[rogue yam]

we have a constitution you know, and it's far older than yours, most european countries do as well, come to think of it......

The key word was "founded".

 

[Bernie Gunther]

<snip> The facts on the ground say otherwise. Talk to the Iraqis lining up to join their security forces. Observe the Iraqis informing on the terrorists in their midst. Hear the laughter and cheers as Iraqis greet American servicemen on their way to the polls. That's what freedom looks like!<snip>

Freedom to vote, while laughing and cheering obviously, for a bunch of Iranian assets who want an Islamic Republic of Iraq?

OK, big success there.

Frankly, nobody in their right mind would want to talk to the Iraqis lining up to join the security forces, or even be standing in the same street as them for fear of suicide bombers in trucks packed with huge fertiliser bombs.

There are some effective bits of the Iraqi forces, but they're basically hardcore Shiite or Kurdish militia/death squad types like the Badr and Wolf Brigades. The rest of them are terrified unemployed guys who might as well have big targets painted on their foreheads, those who aren't already doubles for the resistance.

If you had any effective intelligence, would you and your poor Iraqi stooges be getting blown up with IEDs quite so often yammy? The sort of stuff that's happening in the Sunni triangle only happens when the whole population is on the side of the resistance and where the occupying power has no intel.

 

[snadge]

The key word was "founded".

so you turned up one day and "founded" america, was that before you killed all those pesky "injuns"

 

[citydreams]

*Puts the kettle on waiting for an answer*

 

[Streathamite]

Before the U.S., was their any nation founded in writing on any basis? Which nations have been so founded since?

so fucking what?
well done on completely missing the point I was making.