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US embassy in Belgrade is attacked

I've heard some awful stories about Tudjmans regime which seems it was as bad, if not worse, than milosevic. It's weird how everyone's heard of Milosevic and what he did but hardly anyone knows about the croatian leader.

I dont agree with what they're doing but I do understand why the serb demonstrators are acting like this...:(

The 'West' has always played a strange game with Serbia: on the one hand embracing the country when it suits, then, almost without warning, casting them aside. The Serbs were the single biggest obstacle to US and British designs for Yugoslavia in the post WWII period.

Tudjam was never brought to trial in the Hague, whereas The Slob was brought before the ICHR a tout de suite.:(
 


Exactly

now this could all blow over and people could get on with things and make the best of it

but This doesnt usually happen too often in teh balkans.

This was my big worry - yes the Russia aspect of ratcheting up the pressure in the Caucuses was another concern - but the spectre of a growing number of economically unviable puppet statelets funded effectively by the EU is hassle that no one wants and in no way goes any way down the road of eventual reconciliation - this situation could last for decades

US meddling in the ground politics of countries far far away has hardly been a resounding success of late - this is just another fuck up waiting in the wings and you can guarantee that the oversimplistic approach to the procees by the US administration will cause problems

you cant just dump an idealistic political model on an area ripped apart by ethnic conflict that has its roots in the dark and distant past - pragmatism has to be the guiding principle here - idealism then a quick exit does no one any good- especially those on the gound who have to deal with the consequeces

but at least it out the commie ruskies nose out of joint , and its worth it for that alone I expect:(:rolleyes:

(I am not knee jerk anti American BTW )
 
Well the Yugoslav Federation (1945-1991) was the only time the different ethnic groups lived in one state in a peaceful way, Tito's brand of socialism was rubbish and incoherent, but I will give him credit for the way in which he dealt with the national question.

Perhaps if you lived there you wouldn't... Also, thinking helps, even if you had no such experience [lucky sod]!

Tito actually did it all wrongly! He killed democracy and with it went all the open negotitations via democratic mediating structures and processes - of all the burning issues. Rulling the way he did actually is the root of all of this. The totalitarian system he created was the context in which all this happened! It was based on sheer force and brutality, from imprisonment and torture to extrajudicial killings. Such grounds had to have an impact on the subsequent structures, processes and the general mindset in the region. [See Hannah Arendt for the proper grounding of the thesis.]

Before 1945, the Serbs were the victims of the ethnic cleansing. A German backed fascist Croat puppet state killed over 200,000 Serbs during WW2 and Kosovo was occupied by a Fascist run Albania, under Italian supervision.

The Serbs themselves knew how to do it to others, worry not... One can possibly claim it wasn't on the level of the state, as in NDH's Ustashi regime, granted [scale wise - although Chetnics operated in NDH and elsewhere with deadly consequences!!!] but... In Serbia proper concentration camps existed, too. Ergo, a bit less nonsense, please...

I'm not excusing the crimes of Milosevic, just that all ethnic groups (Albanians, Roma, Jews, Croats, Muslims, Turks, Serbs, Macedons) have all been victims at some point during the 20th century.

True.

But after 1991, the US, the EU, NATO all had a part in assisting in the strife in the former Yugoslavia, encouraging as many nations to break away and stopping attempts at trying to find a solution that would have upheld a multi-ethnic state. A federation was/is the only solution, given that each nation (Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, Albania) have claims to the others land, so unless all of the nations existed within a multi-ethnic federation, conflict would arise.

As it is, unqualified, it's a nonsensical statement!

The EU as whole did no such thing! For instance...

Federation, yes. However, what kind of Federation? Milosevic wanted his version. Others were talking of a proper, democratically structured Federation with 2 domes in Parliament etc. [see UJDI, for instance]. Confederation came in as an option too late.

But NATO, the US and the EU were still playing the Cold War, wishing to carve out weaker states so that they could play them off against one another and use them for their own interests, a Yugoslav Federation would have been better able to take it's own path and that was intolerable in the eye's of the US, NATO and the EU.

As above.

It wasn't in their interests at all. The way you put it. You're forgetting the geopolitical changes, the dissolution of the Soviet Union and Americans letting go of YU as being in their "strategic sphere of influence", as Lawrence Eagleburger stated openly, back then etc.

Don't be fooled by the US talking of supporting self-determination of nations in the Balkans. Bosnia has been ruled as a NATO/EU protectorate and the EU has taken over the running of Kosovo. Last Sunday Kosovo did not become independent, it just passed from Serbian authority to outright EU/NATO rule and the new EU mission has the power to veto laws and decisions made by Kosovo's new parliament and it's prime minister, Hachim Tachi.

Indeed! Good to talk sense! :)

Even before the declaration, since the outside agencies took over, Serbia had no control or say whasoever in Kosovo [since the NATO/EU/UN took over]. But neither did ther Albanians. As in Bosnia and Herzegovina, the outsiders can summarily dismiss the lot of them, all democratically elected.

They did it before, in Bosnia, with good reason, btw...

It's a bloody mess and there isn't much in terms of strategic thinking in all of this!!!:hmm:
 
Er, how much do you actually know about Serbia...apart from all the stories that your press has printed about them? It is rather revealing how, when Croatia declared its independence, the US couldn't wait to welcome Tudjman on board. Of course, what is never explained is how the US actually welcomed hundreds (possibly thousands) of Ustaše (Croatian Fascists) with open arms. It is also strange that when recent events are mentioned, only the name of Milosevič is ever heard. Tudjman always gets a free pass.

They did the same thing with Chetnics. Both the UK and the US.

Some of them were sent back to Tito for slaughter, yes but...

Btw, had he lived Tudjman would have warmed up the same benches in the Hague...
 
They did the same thing with Chetnics. Both the UK and the US.

Some of them were sent back to Tito for slaughter, yes but...

Aye, I remember the US/UK gave the Chetniks their support until it became clear that they were beginning to side with the Nazis.

Of course the very name "Chetnik" carries some unwanted connotations. ;)
 
Btw, had he lived Tudjman would have warmed up the same benches in the Hague...

I'm not so sure about that. The US was hellbent on punishing Serbia. It practically turned a blind eye to what was happening in Krajina.
 

Some of the UK's self-proclaimed gurus on the topics/region have recently had a public debate on the issues, as I wrote in another related thread.

They claimed that Russia has no choice but to recognise Kosovo etc.

I disagreeed most profoundly and told them "don't insult Russian intelligence".

Some of them also claimed that the domino theory doesn't apply. I disagreed most profoundly.

They simply sided with the superpower. They thought that was a "realist" position/analysis [Real Politik incarnate]. TINA [There Is No Alternative - but what the US decides...], they claimed.

I disagreed and warned that the consequences will be profound. Of this sort...

It appears I was much more "realistic" then they were. As it is used "reality" is a clobbering tool. Of the powerful, most of the time.

Oh, and they told me "I'm too principled"...:rolleyes:

Tells a story...:hmm:

Now, what's to stop, from the same principle, say, Republika Srpska to do the same? Or Western Macedonia, once Kosovo and Albania tie the knot...? Or Chechnya - if the nationalist leaders push their population for yet more genocide at the hands of Russian Gov?

Moreover, now that Russia has rasied the stakes: Russia recognises Georgian breakaway Republics and starts carving the rest of them, too? Ukraine doesn't need much pushing to tip over. Neither does Moldova.

A Devil's veritable fairground...

Well done, Bush and his [conscious or semi- or unconscious allies, from the [under]world of politics, to business and all the way to media and Academia.

Arrogant and ignorant, at once [it frequently goes hand in hand]: intellectually, morally and professionally utterly incompetent!!!
 
I'm not so sure about that. The US was hellbent on punishing Serbia. It practically turned a blind eye to what was happening in Krajina.

The secret indictment existed, we're told. Sealed, it waited for the right moment. But the bugger pissed off to the other side...

http://listserv.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0002&L=justwatch-l&O=D&P=75423

The deputy prosecutor added that the late Croatian President Franjo Tudjman
would also be named as "co-offender" in the indictments for crimes committed
during the recapture of the Krajina region of Croatia. This is the first
official confirmation from the ICTY of an indictment against Tudjman.
 

Some of the UK's self-proclaimed gurus on the topics/region have recently had a public debate on the issues,a s I wrote in another related thread.

They claimed that Russia has no choice but to recognise Kosovo etc.

I disagreeed most profoundly and told them "don't insult Russian intelligence".

Some of them also claimed that the domino theory doesn't apply. I disagreed most profoundly.

They simply sided with the superpower. They thought that was a "realist" position/analysis [Real Politik incarnate]. TINA [There Is No Alternative - but what the US decides...], they claimed.

I disagreed and warned that the consequences will be profound. Of this sort...

It appears I was much more "realistic" then they were. As it is used "reality" is a clobbering tool. Of the powerful, most of the time.

Oh, and they told me "I'm too principled"...:rolleyes:

Tells a story...:hmm:

Now, what's to stop, from the same principle, say, Republika Srpska to do the same? Or Western Macedonia, once Kosovo and Albania tie the knot...? Or Chechnya - if the nationalist leaders push their population for yet more genocide at the hands of Russian Gov?

Moreover, now that Russia has rasied the stakes: Russia recognises Georgian breakaway Republics and starts carving the rest of them, too? Ukraine doesn't need much pushing to tip over. Neither does Moldova.

A Devil's veritable fairground...

Well done, Bush and his [conscious or semi- or unconscious allies, from the [under]world of politics, to business and all the way to media and Academia.

Arrogant and ignorant, at once [it frequently goes hand in hand]: intellectually, morally and professionally utterly incompetent!!!
 

I'm not sure which part of that is more demanding of concern.

Russia -- which has not recognized Kosovo's sovereignty -- said it has not ruled out using force to resolve the dispute over the territory if NATO forces breach the terms of their U.N. mandate.

Is worrying enough.

The U.S. Ambassador to NATO said Washington was "very disappointed" by Russia's position on Kosovo

Suggests that the U.S. didn't really have an idea what the Russian stance might be, almost as if they expected Putin to flip a coin...

:(
 
I guess the US is selective in its politics. Here, it's backing a place that unilaterally and illegally decided to secede.

Some americans tried that a few years ago, with disappointing results.
 
Russia -- which has not recognized Kosovo's sovereignty -- said it has not ruled out using force to resolve the dispute over the territory if NATO forces breach the terms of their U.N. mandate.
We have done it enough times ourselves in the last 10 years, so we can't complain if other countries start doing the same.
 
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