US declares Iranian Guards 'terrorists'.

[nino_savatte]

In fact, Revolutionary Guards formed Hezbollah and to this very day maintain a base in N. Beka'a. As Hezbollah is an illegal entity according to International AND Lebanese Law (this despite Hezbollah serving in Lebanese Govt.), they have been a terrorist organisation long before the US got off its haunches.

Really? I find it insulting how you consistently fail to credit local people with creating networks and organisations to represent and serve their needs. Your 'analysis' deliberately ignores how popular Hizb' Allah are among the Lebanese people as a whole.

 

[newharper]

This is a report by Flynt Leverett I found via Steve Clemons's The Washington Note.

http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/

Much of Ledeen's article is directed at blasting the "grand bargain" crowd advocating a re-ordering of numerous interlocking policy problems in the Middle East -- and since one of the leading advocates of a "grand bargain" strategy is my New America Foundation colleague Flynt Leverett, I re-link here his important paper published by The Century Foundation, "Dealing with Tehran: Assessing US Diplomatic Options Toward Iran."

It is a policy report [PDF] on US/Iranian relations. It covers recent history and especially the Bush administrations policy. Leverett is in favour of a "grand bargain" policy which he lucidly spells out. His conclusion is one any sane US administration would examine carefully.

So probaly not the Dems either; as he shows, under Clinton they didn't.

Conclusion


Whether supported by a regional security framework or not, the foregoing
analysis lays out the essential features of a U.S.-Iranian grand bargain. If Wash-
ington does not begin to pursue such an arrangement vigorously and soon, the
window for this kind of strategic understanding between the United States and
the Islamic Republic is likely to close. Under these circumstances, Iran’s de-
velopment of at least a nuclear weapons option in the next few years is highly
likely.
Thus, if it does not pursue a grand bargain with Tehran, the United States
almost certainly will have to take up the more daunting and less potentially
satisfying challenges of coping with a nuclear-capable Iran. And the standing of
the United States in the world’s most strategically critical region will continue
its already disturbing decline.

http://www.tcf.org/list.asp?type=PB&pubid=595

About 20 small pages.

 

[rachamim18]

TAE: I will talk about whatever i want, wherever I want. If a Mod thinks otherwidse, that is their poerogative. If you iniate a thread, you do so understanding that all opinions matter just as much as you rown, and in fact Rev. Guards directly relates to Israel in many ways, especially the very suubject you coopted. America is labeling them terrorists because of their Lebanese activities with relation o Hezbollah, nuff' said.

Fela: Even Amarchists belong to an organisation so giuve that nationhood thing a rest. EVERY PERSON on Earth needs to belong to an entity. Your admission that children are a cause belies your own view. You think thaty nations are evil? Whta are nations suppoosed to be based on? Tribalhood, peoplehood, FAMILY. Jews ARE ALL related by blood to a very colose degree. Even converts are reabsorbed back into the bloodline within 4 generations at most...

SO....Nations are no different than saving one's children...Of course in most cases today's nations are artificial etities with no historical or other context. My nation though, and this will seem chauvinistic to most here, is exempt in that we have maintained our tribal culture for 4500 plus years and exist on our own idingenous land. As such, I will die for my nation any day of the week, and pray all my kids are willing to do so as well. Again, most Westerners will never know this kind of love so I already expect to hear nonsense in response.

 

[rachamim18]

Fela: On America...They kiss our a#$ because they fear us.. In 67 when our SPECIAL relationship began, it was to counter Soviet influsence. Had the Arabs not been Soviet proxies, America would have remained firmly opposed to us as they had since our reestablishment. In 67, up to 77, it was purely based on the Soviets. In 77 it began to shift, in accordance with the geopolitical relaities both America and Israel faced, and finally in 91, the relationship totally changed. We were no longer valuable to America in a true sense but America was branching out as a sole world Superpower.

When America attacked Iraq in its first war there, Arab allies chargined America about its previous hardline support of us. America then saw value in us by making us bend for Arab appeasement, as in when we sat (myself included) in shelters as SCUDs rained down on our heads. The same America that condemend us when we took out Saddam's nuke program was now asking us to absorb bombs, and we did!

Then, in the mid-90s, we fought America in war games and we were the first ,and remain the only nation iupon repeated exercises, to beat America. So, you see, there many reasons why America bows down, most self serving, and yet most Israelis recognise the nation for what it is and are agitating for complete disengagement from America.

Many who remember my posting in Mid-East forum will remember me saying how the financiela end was finishing...until America found itself increasingly isolated. Now, we have a pipeline coming in from Jordan, gushing Iraqi oil soon, and many billions more dollars in largesse...and yet most find it demeaning and a negative. In the end though, we will pull ouselves off America's hind teat and stand strong. The relationship now is to our benefit, not America's.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

So rach, when you were in the Betar youth organisation, did you have a nice brown shirt to goose-step up and down in?

Or did they stop doing that after WW2?

 

[rachamim18]

Fuchs: Irgun only existed prior to Israeli statehood and was never an official anything. Most Jews turned in Irgun members, and yet, Irgun only attacked valid military targets. Remember, although the Kind David was a hotel, it was the OFFICIAL Brit HQ in our land...,etc. Furthermore, in the 1940s there was no official definition of anything terrorist so your mentioning Irgun is pretty worthless.

On mines and borders...I believew that I mentioned that our borders are with nations with whom we exist in a state of declared war, at those nation's behest. The Egyptian and Jordanian borders are not mined. Syrian and Lebanese are.

On chauvinism...I am the first to admit that as an Israeli Jew, and the fatherr of 3 currently serving the same army I myself served for 24 years, I have an inherent bias. However, I challenge a person to counter FACTS I provide, not my opinions.

I stick to unemotional reporting of data and facts. Our borders are mined ebcause Syria and Lebanon publicly admit that they aim for our utter destruction. This FACT, does not change based on my own selfish perception, only on geopolitical reality.

Nino: Regardless of the Hezbollah (Hiz spelling is Saudi dialect, neither Hez nor us use that dialect in Arabic so it is worthless Nino) social welfare network, they aim for completel destruction of another SOVEREIGN state. Additionally, they use caluclated violence against non-combtants so that these two last things make them clearly, a terrorist organisation.

 

[rachamim18]

Nino: Actually, even most Shia outside of Beka'a despise them. I can send you to a few Lebanese sites I participate in if you would like. A couple have English boards. You could then see how real Lebanese actually feel. One thing I found interesting in thge last war, was that we entered villages in the south where the population closed city gates to them. They let us in, but kept Hez out. Hmmm...Hez is no different than the 64 militant groups we foughtr in the first Lebanon War. they are completely self serving with power as their ultimate goal. They claim they want a Shia theocracy, and in fact they could have it if thwey pushed within Lebanon, and yet they are completely unconcerned with anythinbg save Israel...

NewHarper: "Grand Bargain." You mean of course, Grand Appeasement. Are you of the UK? Try and read Chamberlin.

Bernie: I will, this one time, respond to personal comments. Betar never goosestepped, nor even existed at WWII outside of Eastern Europe. They did have snappy uniforms but you are a fool if you think Jabotinsky liked fascists. He was , to his discredit, a complete Anglophile. He worshipped Queen Elizabeth, that is as close as he came to the whiteman in anyway.

As for me, I make no secret of my past. I was a Kahanist, and we made Jabotinsky look like a milkmaid. I left that behind long, long ago. I am of Kadimah now, a Centrist who firmly believes in the right of those now calling themselves "Palestinians," to have their own self determination on post Greenline territory save Golan and Sheba'a.

(Edited for spelling)

 

[fela fan]

Fela: Even Amarchists belong to an organisation so giuve that nationhood thing a rest. EVERY PERSON on Earth needs to belong to an entity. Your admission that children are a cause belies your own view. You think thaty nations are evil? Whta are nations suppoosed to be based on? Tribalhood, peoplehood, FAMILY. Jews ARE ALL related by blood to a very colose degree. Even converts are reabsorbed back into the bloodline within 4 generations at most...

Rachamin, as you say we are influenced and shaped to some degree by our context. I can understand yours, and that's that, i might not agree, but context really is a strong pull.

For me, who has never served and never had to think about it, every person on earth belongs to an entity, yes agreed: the human being entity.

I don't think nations are evil. I belong to a school of thinking that says the real war in this world is the peoples against the leaders, not nation against nation, which in reality is the leaders against the leaders using soldiers to do their fight and manipulating public opinion through propaganda to get them on board.

Leaders are corrupt, greedy, liars, and will get away with whatever they can. In some nations the leaders are also war-mongerers and criminals against humanity. To them the sanctity and miracle of life means nothing.

I'm not prepared to die for my country, not in a million years, i have the one life and i want it for as long as possible. However i have searched in my soul, and know full well that if my life were different i could make the decision to die for causes. But never for a nation. The only future that can really occur for humans is to find peace between nations.

And that requires statesmen to get into leadership positions, and to get those nasty divisive politicians out. How this is achieved is debate for another day.

 

[rachamim18]

Well Fela, I agree whole heartedly that politicians manipulate masses. I have never met a soldier from any nation who did not despise all politicians. Yet, I am from a nation surrounded by more than 1 billion people who for the vast majority, wish to see my nation annihilated. This is a bit different. We have only had one war, of our many, that was even a tiny bit proactive and even then it was tied to direct security.

Were I American , I would not dream of serving in a million years. I do agree with their current deployment, from the US perspective in that petrol makes the world go round but I myself would rather become a Luddite than fight for oil...I would easily give my and my kids' lives though, for a war that prevents us from extermination.

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino: Actually, even most Shia outside of Beka'a despise them. I can send you to a few Lebanese sites I participate in if you would like. A couple have English boards. You could then see how real Lebanese actually feel. One thing I found interesting in thge last war, was that we entered villages in the south where the population closed city gates to them. They let us in, but kept Hez out. Hmmm...Hez is no different than the 64 militant groups we foughtr in the first Lebanon War. they are completely self serving with power as their ultimate goal. They claim they want a Shia theocracy, and in fact they could have it if thwey pushed within Lebanon, and yet they are completely unconcerned with anythinbg save Israel...

Nonsense, Israel's indiscriminate bombing of Lebanon galvinised support for Hizb'Allah...or perhaps you were on Mars while this was happening?

Oh and what's this I hear about Hizb'Allah's support for Michel Aoun?

 

[nino_savatte]

As for me, I make no secret of my past. I was a Kahanist, and we made Jabotinsky look like a milkmaid. I left that behind long, long ago. I am of Kadimah now, a Centrist who firmly believes in the right of those now calling themselves "Palestinians," to have their own self determination on post Greenline territory save Golan and Sheba'a.

So, you admit to being a "former"(sic) Kahanist. Tbh, I don't think you've changed an awful lot...not that I knew you before and from your posts on this forum, I would say that your Kahanist beliefs are still intact.

They did have snappy uniforms but you are a fool if you think Jabotinsky liked fascists.

This deliberately ignores historical facts: first, there were many Italian Jews who joined Mussolini's fascists and second, Jabotinsky liked fascists; he liked their organisation, the nationalism, the discipline and the uniforms.

Nino: Regardless of the Hezbollah (Hiz spelling is Saudi dialect, neither Hez nor us use that dialect in Arabic so it is worthless Nino) social welfare network, they aim for completel destruction of another SOVEREIGN state. Additionally, they use caluclated violence against non-combtants so that these two last things make them clearly, a terrorist organisation.

I have two things to say to this blatant piece of disinformation: 1. Israel constantly strives for the destruction of sovereign states and 2. Israel uses calculated violence against non-combatants.

As I said earlier, you must have been living on Mars while your beloved country was bombibng the fuck out of Lebanon.

 

[rachamim18]

Nino: I was actually in Lebaqnon for most of that war. Even then, as Itold you, villages welcomed us while barring them. Outside of Beka'a even Shia hate them. They see Nasrallah as a man out for one thing, power. They are correct.

Nasrallah talks of resiting occupation by a force that left Lebanon 7 years ago. He talks of foreign oppression while Hezbollah was not only created by 2 foreign powers (Iran and Syria) but while Heez continues to work side by side with those 2 nations! He talks of resistance and defence while launching 4.5 months of incessant shelling aimed at foreingers, then launching an operation that crossed 100 meters into Israeli land, blew up 2 border barriers, and then aimed 2 RPGs at 2 IDF humvees...killing 5, badly wounding 2, and then taking those 2 wounded back into Lebanon where they then disappeared.

Hezbollah is a selfish organisation and one that is a farce. Most within Lebanon actually hate them. As I said, would you care to review some Lebanese forums, I will provide English pages for you to read if so. The thing is, I can give you Shia boards, not even other groups.

Hez is offering tacit support for Aoun because Aoun is sure to continue his non-sensical policy of appeasement towards any and all organised groups save Fatah al Islam. No big suprise in that. With another Hez might find itself cornered.

 

[rachamim18]

As for my past, i have talked about it on this board, as well as many others. I am on a State Dept. watchlist,etc. I was 12 when I joined and 19 when i formally renounced my membership, although I had given up their line of reasoning at about age 16.

Kahanist line is that ALL non-Jews should leave our nation, whether by choice or by force. When I was 16 i went on Active Duty and had the honour of working with Druse soldiers among many others. Israeli Druse are the best soldiers in the world. They are a great honour to our nation. At that point, I could not honestly reconcile Kahanism with my respect and warm feelings toawds Druse, and later Bedua and Circasian Israelis. i adopted Kadimah line of reasoning when former PM Sharon moved to Center. Kadimah is the only hope for our nation.

Noi, many Jews did not join Mussolini at all and in fact, Mussolini adopted Nuremberg laws so it is of no consequence regardless since any Jewish Uncle Toms would have been interred .

Your belief that Jabotinsky admired anything fascist is the sad product of anti-Jewish fringe sites and sources. Will you now tell us that the Talmud says Christains are animals? That we prefer goyshe blood to bake matztot? Nino, you seem intelligent, please if you refuse to use common sense, at least perform some research.

Israel strives to destruct states? Nino, if we wanted to destroy any nation in the world, we could do so rather easily. Furthermore, were it an Arab state, unleashed we could do it in a matter of days. All we have ever sought, and continue to seek, is peaceful and secure coexistence. Remember, we accepted statehood in 1919, "Palestinians" did not.

Israel uses caluculated violence against non-combatants? NEVER. We unfortunately must harm/kill some when going after militants who purposely hide behind women and children, but NEVER do so purposely, EVER.

Living on Mars? I was the equivalent of captain in the 50th Brigade (NACHAL). Do some research.

 

[nino_savatte]

I have never seen such a load of auld tripe in my life.

Noi, many Jews did not join Mussolini at all

You must be joking. I don't know how you can sit there and say this when the facts speak for themselves.

Your belief that Jabotinsky admired anything fascist is the sad product of anti-Jewish fringe sites and sources. Will you now tell us that the Talmud says Christains are animals? That we prefer goyshe blood to bake matztot? Nino, you seem intelligent, please if you refuse to use common sense, at least perform some research.

It would seem as though you have airbrushed out certain unpalatable facts (i.e. those facts that don't play too well with Xtian Zionists and so forth, such as Jabotinsky's admiration for fascism) because they don't serve your narrative too well. I've done my research, pal.

You lie and dissemble, because that's all you can do.

Israel strives to destruct states?

Have you ever heard of "conjugation"? Didn't Olmert say that he wanted (and he borrowed or paraphrased the words of Curtis Le May here) to "bomb Lebanon back into the stone age"? He did iirc.

Nino: I was actually in Lebaqnon for most of that war. Even then, as Itold you, villages welcomed us while barring them. Outside of Beka'a even Shia hate them. They see Nasrallah as a man out for one thing, power. They are correct.

Aye, you were there for the purpose of cracking skulls. I don't believe anyone welcomed you with open arms. It's interesting how your version of events goes directly against the evidence - hein?

Kadimah is the only hope for our nation.

LOL!!! I think Bibi will have the last word on that. Kadimah is a dead duck.

 

[nino_savatte]

In case anyone had forgotten, the title of this thread is

US declares Iranian Guards 'terrorists'. This is not a thread about R18's beloved Israel.

 

[TAE]

TAE: I will talk about whatever i want, wherever I want.

You really don't get it do you?

 

[rachamim18]

Nino: "Olmert's quote." NOPE. He DID say this:" If Lebanon does not restrain Hezbollah, we will set its (Leb) clock back 20 years." Notice, accuracy is all important as is context. Of course, since you do not speak, read, or write Hebrew I really do not expect you to even come close to quoting him.

"Jabotinsky and fascism." OK, I will accept that you researched this, as you claim, if you merely provide me with 2 reputable sources. By reputable I simply mean a non-fringe source like "Talmud is anti-Christain" nonsense,etc.

"Welcoming with open arms." No, that would not be the case however they did open their doors to us, and not to them. Funny thing was, those villages that supposedly supported Hez were simply empty of people. Pretty telling I think. As for cracking heads, not at all. Our objective was to push Hez back 15 klicks and we did that better, all the way to Alawi. Of course we would not be there at all had Hez not bombed our civilains for 4.5 months incessantly and then breached our sovereignity.

"Bibi." Perhaps, but then you can forget about the PA. I still think we have a chance though...

(Edited for spelling)

 

[rachamim18]

As for two things...TAE's arrogant belief that he dicates terms of threads, and Nino's belief that it has nothing to do with Israel AND the false belief, expresed both here and the thread on Lebanese elctions, that Hezbollah is beloved by Lebanese of all stripes:

A general run down on Herz and its aims:


www.intelligence.org.il/eng/bu/hizbullah/hezbollah.htm

Attitudes of common Lebanese regarding the group:

www.lebop.blogspot.com/2006/08/real-fight-of-hezbollah.html

www.lebop.blogspot.com/2006/05/extent-of-hezbollahs-reach.html

www.free-lebanon.com/LFPNews/2007/May/May15/May15b/may15b.html

The Hezboolah Charter in English:

www.eyeonislam.com/the-hezbollah-charter/

The Charter in Arabic, as well as many Hezbollah official documents in both Arabic and English:

www.hassannasrallah.info/hezbollah-1985-charter-arabic-version/



the Revolutionary Guards created Hezbollah and have functioned as its OFFICIAL military leadership up to this very moment. The main Hez base in N. Beka'a is a Revolutionary base.

 

[rachamim18]

(Edited for deletion per repeated post)

 

[rachamim18]

(Edited for deletion per repeated post)

 

[rachamim18]

(Edited for deltion per repeated post)

 

[rachamim18]

{Edited/Deleted, Repeated post}

 

[TAE]

rachamim18 - I hope you realise:

This message is hidden because rachamim18 is on your ignore list.

Just in case any of the previous 6 posts were aimed at me.

 

[rachamim18]

Actually, all 6 did have one point in it for you I believe but only because they were 2 posts that kept reposting due to ISP problems. If you are ignoring me, cool, just do it snd stop riding me like a schoolgirl. I, as I said, will continue to post to anything I wish as you are not the only one reading my posts and ifgnorance must always be adressed. Nuff' said.

 

[Random]

god almighty, rachamim really knows how to churn it out!

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino: "Olmert's quote." NOPE. He DID say this:" If Lebanon does not restrain Hezbollah, we will set its (Leb) clock back 20 years." Notice, accuracy is all important as is context. Of course, since you do not speak, read, or write Hebrew I really do not expect you to even come close to quoting him.

"Jabotinsky and fascism." OK, I will accept that you researched this, as you claim, if you merely provide me with 2 reputable sources. By reputable I simply mean a non-fringe source like "Talmud is anti-Christain" nonsense,etc.

"Welcoming with open arms." No, that would not be the case however they did open their doors to us, and not to them. Funny thing was, those villages that supposedly supported Hez were simply empty of people. Pretty telling I think. As for cracking heads, not at all. Our objective was to push Hez back 15 klicks and we did that better, all the way to Alawi. Of course we would not be there at all had Hez not bombed our civilains for 4.5 months incessantly and then breached our sovereignity.

"Bibi." Perhaps, but then you can forget about the PA. I still think we have a chance though...

(Edited for spelling)

I'm not going to get "evidence" just to please you. You have demonstrated a consistent refusal to back up your claims, so you can go and whistle...you know how to whistle - don't you?

Jabotinsky was an admirer of fascism and Kahanists are just a little short of being outright fascists themselves. They are the Zionist equivalent of the falangist.

If you want it, go and Google it, big boy.

 

[Ae589]

*remembers why he doesn't come to p&p anymore*

 

[rachamim18]

Actually Nino, Kahanists are true fascists and Phalangists never came close ot us. As for facts, viewing your integrity online as I have done for some years now, all i can offer is that is par for the course. find it telling though that you accuse Betar of fascism and then say Kahni are not quite. Seems as if you boxed yourself in but no problem. Truth does not change you see, only fringe sites that say the Talmud calls Christains animals believe that nonsense about Jabotinsky and if that is your thing, who am I to stop you? I will even send you an url of a Nazi group pretending ot be Kahani if you want to try for a trifecta.

How quickly these threads devolve into hate fests. Shame, but then from a nation enslaving the Malvinas, forcing Scots and Welsh to call themselves English, and trying to boycott schools in Israel, schools that have many Arab students mind you, when they do not even raise a whimper over places like N. Korea...what can one possibly expect? ike water off of a dog's back after 4500 years.

 

[tangentlama]

many Jews did not join Mussolini at all

You must be joking. I don't know how you can sit there and say this when the facts speak for themselves.

Rachamim's not joking - "many Jews did not join Mussolini at all" - that is correct statement.

Palestinian Jews & Arabs were part of Palestinian Regiments of British Army. Some fought Mussolini's forces in Egypt....some Pal Jews (e.g. Zvi Aharoni) were in British Army and sent to join the 8th Army (US) in Italy as part of mobile units...fighting against Mussolin's forces - thousands of them.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

The rachamim show is getting boring. He just lies and lies. Life is too short.