US attempted to murder Muqtada al-Sadr

[Barking_Mad]

Is these the same elections that the US Government didn't want to give to the Iraqi people until Sistani stepped in and told them he'd have the Shia majority to face down if they refused?

 

[Peet]

Is these the same elections that the US Government didn't want to give to the Iraqi people until Sistani stepped in and told them he'd have the Shia majority to face down if they refused?

If that is the case then does that not suggest there is a will for democracy?

 

[sleaterkinney]

Quite difficult to go into any of this in depth while trying to do my day job so I'll say this...

In the referendum on the constitution, there was a turnout in favour of it that would make most western democracies green with envy.

According to the Iraqi election commission the turnout was 63% for the constitution, 58% in the representative elections, with a low of 2% in the provence of Anbar, that's hardly grounds for envy is it?. But don't let the facts get in the way.

 

[Peet]

According to the Iraqi election commission the turnout was 63% for the constitution, 58% in the representative elections, with a low of 2% in the provence of Anbar, that's hardly grounds for envy is it?. But don't let the facts get in the way.

Compared with some of our election turn outs it's not bad at all.

Does the commission give any reason for the Anbar turnout? Could have anything to do with threats and intimidation could it?

 

[Andy the Don]

Quite difficult to go into any of this in depth while trying to do my day job so I'll say this...

In the referendum on the constitution, there was a turnout in favour of it that would make most western democracies green with envy.

The constitution allows for self realisation and self governance of the very differing provences while still having access to oil revenues.

Were this to work it wold be a serious economic and political threat to the more intolerant regimes in the region. That is why they have done everything in their power to prevent it from happening.

It is also the last thing Islamists want for Iraq. That is why they have flocked to the region to take pot shots and the great satan.

I do not thik the majority of Iraqis want Iraq to become an intolerant Islamic theocracy. If that were so they would have rejected the constitution.

Best summed up here...

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110010107

Peet, yes the turnout for both referendum for the Iraqi constitution & the elections was very high. But the Sunni community hardly turnout out all for the referendum on the constitution. Which was drafted, mainly by the neo-cons, in such a way as to give the Iraqi legislator no power over vital matters, ie oil revenues, control over state industries & immunity for occupying forces state or contracted. There was no buy in from the Sunni community hence we have great resentment from the Sunni's. This in turn allowed in Al-Qeada who were initially welcomed by the Sunni community. Recently there have been clashes between the Al-Q backed foreign insurgents & the Sunni community. As the Sunni's the realise that they are Iraqis first.

You are still going on about the neo-con dream of spreading democracy in the Mid-East this is a dream which even the Bush cabal are now not pursuing returning to teh "real-politics" of the cold war (Although I would be in favour of democracy in the Mid-East, but not the "Fordian" you can have democracy as long as it results in a pro-west, neo-liberal economic government that the neo-cons would like. Should you vote for a theocratic government like Hamas well all bets are off).

Regarding what the average Iraqi wants.. well probably to be able to go about their daily business secure in the knowledge that they are not going to be blown up by a suicide bomber, kidnapped for being the wrong sect or caught in a crossfire. But seeing that Iraq is hemorrhaging its professional middle class a functioning Iraqi state will be a very long way off. Before you ask although I was against the invasion (after talking to people ITK regarding the planning & the dangers which were communicated to those at top by those ITK, but ignored & those ITK were very quickly excluded from the decision making process) I was pleased that Saddam was disposed & hoped that a better Iraq & middle east would result. Unfortunately due to the arrogance of the neo-cons we have opened Pandora's box & all have to suffer the consequences. Not us as much as the average Iraqi & the servicemen & women currently in Iraq.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Compared with some of our election turn outs it's not bad at all.

For a country supposedly yearning to move into democracy it's pathetic, How can you call a turnout of 58% not bad at all?. How can you think those politicians have any sort of mandate.?

Does the commission give any reason for the Anbar turnout? Could have anything to do with threats and intimidation could it?

Turnout in Irbil was 60% and they have good security there.

 

[Andy the Don]

Does the commission give any reason for the Anbar turnout? Could have anything to do with threats and intimidation could it?

No Peet it was because they coalition governing body could not get the Sunni's of Anbar province to buy into the new constitution. Rightly or wrongly they feared it would lead to a reduced Sunni influence. They also feared that as Anbar province has none of the natural resources of Kurdish & shia Iraq they would lose out financially.

 

[Barking_Mad]

If that is the case then does that not suggest there is a will for democracy?

There was a will to make sure from Sistani that they weren't solely going to become American puppets, but then some of the damage had been done with Bremner's executive orders. Whether any of the Iraqi leaders want democracy or just a shot at imposing their own religious dictate is open for debate..

 

[moono]

Peet;

Quite difficult to go into any of this in depth while trying to do my day job

Poses like a pro, avoids like an amateur.

Peet;

Arabs did start the war/uprising and encouraged palestinians to flee.

 

[Peet]

Peet, yes the turnout for both referendum for the Iraqi constitution & the elections was very high. But the Sunni community hardly turnout out all for the referendum on the constitution. Which was drafted, mainly by the neo-cons, in such a way as to give the Iraqi legislator no power over vital matters, ie oil revenues, control over state industries & immunity for occupying forces state or contracted.

I can understand how the perception could be a negative one but the oil was immune from central control to stop it being cut off from any one region. Handover of oil was never stage one. US forces needed a certain degree of immunity because you can't fight an insugency with one hand tied around you balls.

There was no buy in from the Sunni community hence we have great resentment from the Sunni's. This in turn allowed in Al-Qeada who were initially welcomed by the Sunni community. Recently there have been clashes between the Al-Q backed foreign insurgents & the Sunni community. As the Sunni's the realise that they are Iraqis first.

Which is encouraging because if their is Iraqi nationalism there is every reason to beleive a democratic Iraq can work.

You are still going on about the neo-con dream of spreading democracy in the Mid-East this is a dream which even the Bush cabal are now not pursuing returning to teh "real-politics" of the cold war (Although I would be in favour of democracy in the Mid-East, but not the "Fordian" you can have democracy as long as it results in a pro-west, neo-liberal economic government that the neo-cons would like. Should you vote for a theocratic government like Hamas well all bets are off).

If Iraqis eventualy choose to vote for a Hamas style party then that is fine so long as that party takes power by democratic means rather than intimidation and violence. Like the palestinians though, they have to understand that those choices at the ballot box may have consequences in terms of international relations.

Regarding what the average Iraqi wants.. well probably to be able to go about their daily business secure in the knowledge that they are not going to be blown up by a suicide bomber, kidnapped for being the wrong sect or caught in a crossfire. But seeing that Iraq is hemorrhaging its professional middle class a functioning Iraqi state will be a very long way off. Before you ask although I was against the invasion (after talking to people ITK regarding the planning & the dangers which were communicated to those at top by those ITK, but ignored & those ITK were very quickly excluded from the decision making process) I was pleased that Saddam was disposed & hoped that a better Iraq & middle east would result. Unfortunately due to the arrogance of the neo-cons we have opened Pandora's box & all have to suffer the consequences. Not us as much as the average Iraqi & the servicemen & women currently in Iraq.

Which is precisely why you do need a large and well armed security force in place. There is no getting around the fact that as yet, the Iraqi army and police is simply not up to the task. That takes time.

The choices of the majority must be the prority here. You cannot hand over the whole of Iraq to terrorists because of the cost in civillian lives. Otherwise all of this will have been for nothing.

If we stopped WW2 because of civilian casulaties we'd probably not be having this conversation.

 

[Peet]

Peet;


Poses like a pro, avoids like an amateur.

I have to at least pretend to do myt day job.

I challenge you to take on a "zionist" forum during your working day and see how robust your arguments are then (while trying to design software)

 

[nino_savatte]

I have to at least pretend to do myt day job.

I challenge you to take on a "zionist" forum during your working day and see how robust your arguments are then (while trying to design software)

All one need do is read The Daily Hate, to get that sort of view.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Peet, given that there was a Yes vote of 73% on a turnout of 63%, how can you claim the constitution has majority backing, less than half the Iraqis voted in favour of it.

 

[Peet]

Peet, given that there was a Yes vote of 73% on a turnout of 63%, how can you claim the constitution has majority backing, less than half the Iraqis voted in favour of it.

How is 73% NOT a majority? How is 63% less than half?

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

[sleaterkinney]

How is 73% NOT a majority? How is 63% less than half?

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????

What's 73% of 63%?

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

[Peet]

What's 73% of 63%?

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Doesn't matter. A 73% turnout is an endorsement of democracy.

I take you point tho.
A fatuous argument ... how people in the UK voted for the current government?

 

[sleaterkinney]

Doesn't matter. A 73% turnout is an endorsement of democracy.

I take you point tho.

No, the turnout was 63% with a yes vote of 73%, do you have trouble reading or something?. Less than half the voters voting for something is not endorsing it.

 

[Peet]

But it is a mandate within the limitations of democracy.

 

[sleaterkinney]

But it is a mandate within the limitations of democracy.

What the f**ks that supposed to mean?. It was a yes/no referendum...

 

[moono]

Peet;

I challenge you to take on a "zionist" forum during your working day and see how robust your arguments are then (while trying to design software)

You still have a challenge to address yourself. You have quoted, by way of cut and paste, the words of a Syrian aligned to America, banished to Lebanon by Syria, stripped of his assets by Syria , words having been taken from his 'memoirs' published posthumously in 1973.

This is your evidence that 'Arabs started the 1948 war and encouraged Palestinians to flee' ?

You'll recall that this particular piece of hazbara was supposed to counter evidence, evidence documented in Ben-Gurion's American speeches, that Ben-Gurion promoted the ethnic cleansing of Palestine . Wtf are you kidding, Peet ?

Would you like to have another go, twenty-five year old 'memoirs' of discredited Syrian ex-politicians aside ?

 

[TAE]

the government of Iraq has a democratic mandate

So did the old east german dictatorship. Won 90% of the votes they did. But ask yourself why allied troops (US and UK) cannot be held/charged/convicted of murder in Iraq and wonder how much of a free hand the iraqi government actually has.

 

[Peet]

What the f**ks that supposed to mean?. It was a yes/no referendum...

Of which the majority participated of which the majority of that sample said yes. That's how representetive democracy works.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Of which the majority participated of which the majority of that sample said yes. That's how representetive democracy works.

That wasn't the election for the representetive government, it was a referendum on the constitution, a yes/no question. There is a difference.

Less than half the voters voted yes so you cannot say it has majority support.

 

[Peet]

Peet;
This is your evidence that 'Arabs started the 1948 war and encouraged Palestinians to flee' ?

There is more plenty out there.

 

[Peet]

Less than half the voters voted yes so you cannot say it has majority support.

Sure but you can't say that New Labour has majority support either but within the framework of democracy they have a mandate to govern which is about as legitimate as you're going to get outside of a PR system but PR isirellevant given that we are talking about the referendum.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Sure but you can't say that New Labour has majority support either but within the framework of democracy they have a mandate to govern which is about as legitimate as you're going to get outside of a PR system but PR isirellevant given that we are talking about the referendum.

Why do you keep getting representative elections and referendums mixed up?

 

[nino_savatte]

But it is a mandate within the limitations of democracy.

That means nothing. Reagan and subsequent presidents had mandates of 25% or less. Many voters were removed from the electoral rolls for confessing a particular party political allegiance.

 

[Peet]

Why do you keep getting representative elections and referendums mixed up?

I don't, I made the distinction.

I think we're talking at crossed purposes. I think we're getting hung up on the meaning of representetive.

Ie, the vote, while not a majority is representetive of opinion given that the sample of people polled was 73%

 

[moono]

Peet;

There is more plenty out there.

Larf. Plenty more what ? 'More' implies that you had some to start with.

 

[sleaterkinney]

I don't, I made the distinction.

I think we're talking at crossed purposes. I think we're getting hung up on the meaning of representetive.

Ie, the vote, while not a majority is representetive of opinion given that the sample of people polled was 73%

Now you're getting the figures mixed up.

The turnout was 63%, so I would question whether that was representative or not and even so 27% of that voted no, so you cannot say that a majority of Iraqis, not voters, Iraqis support it.