US Army opens fire on Canadian diplomats in Baghdad

[Larry O'Hara]

Did they ever admit culpability for that Italian diplomat they killed when they shot up the car he was taking a hostage to safety in?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4324251.stm

No!!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Fuck, do they give out prizes for journalists or something?

A week's extra R & R per journo, and a blow job from Laura Bush.

I understand that the turn-down rate on the blow jobs is 100%.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

I understand that the turn-down rate on the blow jobs is 100%.

And with this statement you prove that you never really served in the armed forces...

 

[foggypane]

And with this statement you prove that you never really served in the armed forces...

He could have been a crab. They're fussy.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

He could have been a crab. They're fussy.

Wierdos.

 

[ViolentPanda]

And with this statement you prove that you never really served in the armed forces...

Because I understand that American troops turned down blow jobs from the first lady?
I'm sure there's some kind of logic to your point, but it seems to have escaped me.

Then again, you're OTC, aren't you? That might explain the lack of logic.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Because I understand that American troops turned down blow jobs from the first lady?
I'm sure there's some kind of logic to your point, but it seems to have escaped me.

Then again, you're OTC, aren't you? That might explain the lack of logic.

*waves fist impotently*

*gets distracted by shiny object*

Sorry, where were we?

 

[ViolentPanda]

*waves fist impotently*

*gets distracted by shiny object*

Sorry, where were we?

"Impotently"?

Stop drinking the tea, lad!

 

[Bob_the_lost]

I'll have you know that it's an accepted use of the word oh undereducated buffoon.

helplessly: in a helpless manner; "the crowd watched him helplessly"

 

[Bigdavalad]

It is a lot easier to write about "scared" American warriors than it is to confront them on the battlefield.

Anyone who isn't scared when they're being shot at or when they're out on the streets in Iraq is either a fool or a liar.

 

[Bigdavalad]

If our leaders had known then how much you lot would still be whinging 60 years on, they might have let the Huns have you.

You did in 1940, the Huns don't appear to have beaten us then either, do they?

My Grandad served in North Africa and Italy and he said they were more scared of the USAAF than the Luftwaffe...

 

[ViolentPanda]

Anyone who isn't scared when they're being shot at or when they're out on the streets in Iraq is either a fool or a liar.

They're also likely to be fucking dangerous to their comrades-in-arms.

 

[foggypane]

You did in 1940, the Huns don't appear to have beaten us then either, do they?

My Grandad served in North Africa and Italy and he said they were more scared of the USAAF than the Luftwaffe...

That's cos he was Italian

 

[Bigdavalad]

That's cos he was Italian

 

[rogue yam]

Anyone who isn't scared when they're being shot at or when they're out on the streets in Iraq is either a fool or a liar.

I never said they weren't scared. I merely note that those who have acted on the assumption that American forces were too scared to operate effectively have typically wound up on the woeful end of a butt whippin'.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

You did in 1940, the Huns don't appear to have beaten us then either, do they?

My Grandad served in North Africa and Italy and he said they were more scared of the USAAF than the Luftwaffe...

There was a motto in Italy, something along the lines of: "When the British bombers come, the Germans take cover. When the German bombers come, the British take cover. When the American bombers come, everyone takes cover."

 

[TAE]

I never said they weren't scared. I merely note that those who have acted on the assumption that American forces were too scared to operate effectively have typically wound up on the woeful end of a butt whippin'.

Mostly from a safe distance.

 

[foggypane]

Mostly from a safe distance.

True, but that's down to the fundamental principle of US forces, certainly in Iraq right now, of not taking any casualties if the death of others can prevent it. Hence the carloads of iraqis getting riddled with lead on suspicion.

In WW2 it was mainly on the very sound principle that if you can kill the Germans from a mile or 2 away it makes good sense to do so.

Generalising badly, that conflict was military - vs - military with civilian population cleared out.

 

[dylanredefined]

I dont remeber being scared just bloody annoyed .You cant shoot at anything suspicious as everything might be suspicious .Unless a sucide bomber drives up firing his ak the only thing you will know about it is when your discussing david bloody beckham with him in the afterworld waiting room . And you can have a 6ft lighted sign saying slow down and dont approach or we will shoot . People ignore it as they think we recognise them,
or I'm too important for the rules to apply to me ,or they just have a blonde moment .
The Americans have a completely diffrent aproach than we do .They are desprately trying to train and equip there soldiers to fight this new war.
The sad thing is a lot of them think they are better than they really are
and for every red neck jerk .There are clever good soldiers who think what is doing is right and they are helping the iraqes .

 

[Bernie Gunther]

US hearts and minds policy in Iraq.

"If anyone gets too close to us we fucking waste them; It's kind of a shame, because it means we've killed a lot of innocent people."

Vicious Circle

 

[ViolentPanda]

I dont remeber being scared just bloody annoyed .You cant shoot at anything suspicious as everything might be suspicious .Unless a sucide bomber drives up firing his ak the only thing you will know about it is when your discussing david bloody beckham with him in the afterworld waiting room . And you can have a 6ft lighted sign saying slow down and dont approach or we will shoot . People ignore it as they think we recognise them,
or I'm too important for the rules to apply to me ,or they just have a blonde moment .
The Americans have a completely diffrent aproach than we do .They are desprately trying to train and equip there soldiers to fight this new war.
The sad thing is a lot of them think they are better than they really are
and for every red neck jerk .There are clever good soldiers who think what is doing is right and they are helping the iraqes .

Problem is that any unit of troops is only as good as the least well-trained or disciplined person in that unit. Just add one "red neck jerk" and you can get instant clusterfuck.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Problem is that any unit of troops is only as good as the least well-trained or disciplined person in that unit. Just add one "red neck jerk" and you can get instant clusterfuck.

Arguably another contributing factor is that even the mighty US military has no workable answer to suicide bombs. The answer they do have, spraying any vehicle that comes anywhere near them with automatic fire, has fairly obvious drawbacks from a hearts and minds point of view. This perpetuates the vicious circle.

 

[dylanredefined]

As long as you got someone to drive the car wear the sucide belt its
unstopable .There are ways to reduce casualties but shooting the crap out of anything that moves is not it.

 

[rogue yam]

Arguably another contributing factor is that even the mighty US military has no workable answer to suicide bombs.

It is a tough problem. And the innocent Iraqis are getting blown up by Islamists and occasionally fired on mistakenly by U.S. and other security forces. The Iraqis are figuring the situation out and are increasingly acting against the terrorists. It is their country. If they want peace and security, they will ultimately have to provide it for themselves. It's a slow, difficult process. Luckily they can count on the support of the world's most powerful, honorable, and resolute military as they make their way.

 

[TAE]

It is their country.

LOL.

 

[Bigdavalad]

Luckily they can count on the support of the world's most powerful, honorable, and resolute military as they make their way.

And the Yanks have got their soldiers there too...

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Support for attacks against US forces correlated closely with the percentages of those who thought the coalition had behaved "very badly":

The percentage of respondents who thought that the attacks could be completely or somewhat justified was 35 percent in Baghdad, 43 percent in Sunni areas, and 26 percent in Shiite areas. In Kurdish areas it was zero percent. (The 15 March ABC poll similarly found that support for attacks was notably higher among Sunnis than Shiites: 36 percent versus 12 percent.)

Another correlation relevant to feelings about the military presence has to do with regional variations in the incidence of violence. The September-October 2004 poll conducted by the International Republican Institute found 22 percent of Iraqis reporting their households as having been "directly affected by violence in terms of death handicap, or significant monetary loss." The results by region were: 33 percent each for Baghdad and the Sunni regions, 26.6 percent in Mosul and Kirkuk, 18-19 percent for the mid-Euphrates and the south, and 10.5 percent for Kurdish areas.

In sum: direct experiences of violence, poor appraisals of US troop behavior, and support for insurgent attacks seem to correlate.

Vicious Circle

Edited to add. Those polls are anything up to a couple of years old by the way, the situation has worsened since then. Iraqi support for the attacks against US forces was up to 53% in Sunni areas by this time last year. source

I don't have any more recent polls of Iraqi opinion to hand, but clearly having people you know and perhaps love, shot to pieces by scared and trigger-happy US soldiers increases the likelihood of further attacks on US troops, which in turn increases the likelihood of scared US troops being trigger-happy.

That's how a vicious circle works after all and it does not appear to me that the US government or military has any idea at all how to break the cycle.

 

[ViolentPanda]

And the Yanks have got their soldiers there too...

Many a true word mate, many a true word...

 

[friedaweed]

This is just noise

Repeat after me.
I must work harder in propaganda class

It is a tough problem. And the innocent Iraqis are getting blown up by Islamists..

Evil bastards

and occasionally fired on mistakenly by U.S. and other security forces.

Careless angels

The Iraqis are figuring the situation out and are increasingly acting against the terrorists.

"Even the natives are with us Mr Bushhhhhh."
This is embarrassing coming from a free thinking spud. Is this the same Iraqi nationals who are joining the insurgency. Or are they declared non Iraqi then

It is their country.

Who the insurgents

If they want peace and security,

from being "fired on mistakenly by U.S."

they will ultimately have to provide it for themselves.

aha! so that's why there's Iraqi Insurgents

It's a slow, difficult process.

Then why don't you leave?

Luckily they can count on the support of the world's most powerful, honorable, and resolute military as they make their way.

***fades out to sounds of the calvary bugle
**Big Johns' profile in the foreground and and eastern sunset.
* Box office flop

 

[Old Gergl]

I don't have any more recent polls of Iraqi opinion to hand

Here - January 31, 2006 (pdf!)

A substantial portion of Iraqis support attacks on US led-forces, but not attacks on Iraqi government security forces or Iraqi civilians. Ethnic groups varied sharply on these questions.

Overall, 47% say they approve of “attacks on US-led forces” (23% strongly). There are huge differences between ethnic groups. An extraordinary 88% of Sunnis approve, with 77% approving strongly. Forty-one percent of Shia approve as well, but just 9% strongly. Even 16% of Kurds approve (8% strongly).