US Army opens fire on Canadian diplomats in Baghdad

[KeyboardJockey]

It is a lot easier to write about "scared" American warriors than it is to confront them on the battlefield.

I noticed your 'marlboro man' marine James Miller has been questioning the motives behind the war. The UK Guardian covered it in more detail than the link below and CBS.

When one of your flag waving moronic media icons speaks out isn't it time to wake up and smell the coffee RY?

James Miller story

I'll sort out the Guardian link later.

Your solidiers are fucking scared shitless RY. For all the US's bloated military budget you are still getting a kicking from the insurgents and each ham fisted action against them is creating the conditions for recruiting more - something that the British have found out at various points in the history of Empire.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

A British officer in Basra said: “The Americans can be pretty pumped-up. Sometimes they fire in broad daylight when we are travelling at two miles per hour, shouting that we are British out of the window and waving the Union Jack. If they shoot, our drill is to slam on the brakes and race in the opposite direction.”

source

 

[Bob_the_lost]

source

It's a pretty common response from anyone who's served over there.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Most of the incidents of this kind listed in "Vicious Circle: The Dynamics of Occupation and Resistance in Iraq" seem to indicate that US doctrine is at the root of many of these tragedies.

New York Times reporter John Burns recounts an 18 January 2005 incident in Tal Afar (west of Mosul) witnessed and captured on film by Getty Images photographer Chris Hondros: 41

oldiers of the Apache company were walking in near darkness toward an intersection along a deserted commercial street when they saw the headlights of a sedan turning into the street about 100 yards ahead. An officer ordered the troops over their headsets to halt the vehicle, and all raised weapons. One soldier fired a three-shot burst into the air, but the car kept coming, Mr. Hondros said, and then half a dozen troops fired at least 50 rounds, until the car was peppered with bullets and rolled gently to a stop against a curb. ''I could hear sobbing and crying coming from the car, children's voices,'' Mr. Hondros said. Next he said, one of the rear doors opened, and six children, four girls and two boys, one only 8 years old, tumbled into the street. They were splattered with blood. Mr. Hondros, whose photographs of the incident were published around the world, said that the parents of four of the children lay dead in the front seat. Their bodies were riddled with bullets, and the man's skull had smashed.

The Economist (UK) reports:

There is only one traffic law in Ramadi these days: when Americans approach, Iraqis scatter. Horns blaring, brakes screaming, the midday traffic skids to the side of the road as a line of Humvee jeeps ferrying American marines rolls the wrong way up the main street. Every vehicle [scatters], that is, except one beat-up old taxi. Its elderly driver, flapping his outstretched hand, seems, amazingly, to be trying to turn the convoy back. Gun turrets swivel and lock on to him, as a hefty marine sergeant leaps into the road, levels an assault rifle at his turbaned head, and screams: "Back this bitch up, motherfucker!"42

The basic rule of engagement for such encounters is posted on the bumpers of US military vehicles: "Keep back 50m or deadly force will be applied." Usually, soldiers and Marines will allow errant vehicles to approach much closer. But the Economist quotes a Marine lieutenant observing: "If anyone gets too close to us we fucking waste them; It's kind of a shame, because it means we've killed a lot of innocent people."

source

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Its not just a recent thing. I remember one of my elderly rellies saying how when in France after D Day the British Troops had to carry a huge horizontal union jack to avoid being bombed by the ever accurate USAF.

I thought they landed at different beaches, in different areas.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

I thought they landed at different beaches, in different areas.

Not all that far away, and planes can fly a long way.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Not all that far away, and planes can fly a long way.

Also, there was no USAF then, it was the Army Air Force.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Also, there was no USAF then, it was the Army Air Force.

Indeed it was the USAAF.

I'm sure all those bombed brits were so much happier once the extra letter was removed.

 

[rogue yam]

Your solidiers are fucking scared shitless RY.

Tell that to the Fallujans.

 

[laptop]

Tell that to the Fallujans.

What does this mean? Expand...

 

[rogue yam]

I'm sure all those bombed brits were so much happier once the extra letter was removed.

If our leaders had known then how much you lot would still be whinging 60 years on, they might have let the Huns have you.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

What does this mean? Expand...

It means that this dimwit thinks Fallujah was a mighty victory for his football team, um country.

Rather than a strategic disaster.

 

[rogue yam]

What does this mean? Expand...

Figure it out yourself.

 

[laptop]

Figure it out yourself.

(a) That the surviving Fallujans have noticed that a load of ill-educated, scared-shitless and heavily-armed boys are more dangerous than anything else on the planet; and

(b) The our persistently disruptive bridge-dwelling friend thinks that killing a lot of unAmericans is of itself a victory; in which he reveals himself as a xenophobic cunt.

Fair summary?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

(a) That the surviving Fallujans have noticed that a load of ill-educated, scared-shitless and heavily-armed boys are more dangerous than anything else on the planet; and

(b) The our persistently disruptive bridge-dwelling friend thinks that killing a lot of unAmericans is of itself a victory; in which he reveals himself as a xenophobic cunt.

Fair summary?

Sounds about right to me. I'd imagine most of the surviving Fallujans are actively working on getting their own back by now.

 

[rogue yam]

Try this out (from way back at post #13):

It is a lot easier to write about "scared" American warriors than it is to confront them on the battlefield.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

"warriors"

I reckon someone has spent *far* too much time playing D&D.

 

[laptop]

I'm thinking of some sort of design standard for armchairs, such that the moment anyone sitting in one pretends to be a warrior a four-foot spike is activated.

But then, of course, they'd be shit-scared armchair warriors and much more dangerous than any actual warrior who's as calm and collected as circumstances allow.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Try this out (from way back at post #13):

Ask some of them yourself about being scared.

 

[foggypane]

This thread is turning, as they so often do, into a name calling exercise on 2 related topics:

1. the US armed forces are shit/wonderful
2. the US doesn't care about anyone else.

These are aspects of the problems presented by what is going on in Iraq and in The War Against Terror.

Technical details - sorry to refer to human tragedies in that way - about blue on blue or collateral damage miss the point, as do angst ridden howling about how the US (and UK ftm) don't keep stats on dead Iraqis.

The bigger picture is that TWAT is more about showing who is boss. Clearly, and for the foreseeable, that is the US.

Infantry privates in Baghdad may not realise it, but their rather brutal rules of engagement are helping in the wider aim of intimidation.

Watch out, oil rich 3rd world countries, says every news broadcast, this could happen to you. So bend over.

All the laughable talk about fighting terrorism or building democracy is a sham. There is no crusade for any sort of noble aim, in Iraq or TWAT. It's realpolitik.

 

[laptop]

It's realpolitik.

Except... we need a new term. The directors are not part of the reality-based community.

I think Unrealpolitik works in German...

 

[foggypane]

I' m not so sure. Just because the action on the ground is haywire doesn't mean the plan is not working.

It's a bit like the Natwest bank. All the adverts give you the impression that they are there to help you. They, in fact, love you. So, when the miserable bastards stitch you up good and proper at every turn you feel not only angry but bewildered. 'How can their actions make any sense?' you think, 'they said they wanted to help and now they have fucked me, in my botty, hard and unlubricated'.

However, on looking deeper inside we find that the Natwest was pulling a stunt. It isn't here to help - it's here to make money for shareholders! Now it all makes sense!

if you look at the US actions lately, assuming that their intent is to make the world think both 'these guys are after our submission' and 'these guys are dangerously deranged enough to force our submission', it falls into place.

 

[laptop]

if you look at the US actions lately, assuming that their intent is to make the world think both 'these guys are after our submission' and 'these guys are dangerously deranged enough to force our submission', it falls into place.

Not disagreeing with you there.

My problem is that I suspect we have genuinely deranged people playing at the Realpolitik of appearing deranged.

I seem to recall reading that Herr Realpolitik selbst, H Kissinger, has the same fear...

 

[foggypane]

Oh crikey.

What if they are just trying to make us think that they are genuinely....
errr.... forget it. It is very scary though either way.

I'm pretty sure that the middle and lower echelons are just playing it straight.

 

[nino_savatte]

Bite me.

Is that an invitation to one of your kinky sex sessions?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

I'm thinking of some sort of design standard for armchairs, such that the moment anyone sitting in one pretends to be a warrior a four-foot spike is activated.

Or they could get one out of Freaky Deakyhttp://www.ereader.com/product/book/excerpt/7523?book=Freaky_Deaky.

Incidentally I can't believe no-one's invoked the South Park movie on this thread.

 

[oi2002]

It is a lot easier to write about "scared" American warriors than it is to confront them on the battlefield.

I've never had the privilege of being under American fire but I still have an IBS episode at the mere memory of gunfire... darn that's another Kaftan ruined.

Reading the Canadian account these kids, remmeber they are probably uncomfortable 19 year olds, missing mom, with scant training rather than your Hollywood superhuman warriors, were firing on a target that could not be said to threaten them.

I'd say that's jittery fear and months of tired vigilence under aggressive force protection orders issued by a command more worried about the political consequences of casualties than counter-insurgency.

Not allowed to hunker done in well fortified bases they scurry arround at 40Mph in armor spraying any vehicle that comes within a 100m. The Westmorland style big sweep is part of the same malaise. A senior British officer recently used the term Kinetic to describe US tactics. Movement giving the appearence of action as a substitute for any effective action. Being occasionally very scared and erring on the side of caution is psychologically normal in the soul destroying buisness of guerilla warfare but this is a recipe for failure.

Institutionally the US Army has always produced excellent battlefield soldiers prone to be trigger happy, you can read of similar incidents all through the last century. It's time as occupying force in Iraq has revealed its unsuitability for the job. The MC, which like the British Army specilizes in colonial warfare, is rather more suiited to Iraq. Neither of those have done that well either, Iraq is an unforgiving environment even for experts.

Larry Johnson points out the strain of the Iraq occupation is doing to an Army whose motto once was “quality is job one”:

Our military and political leaders are looking the other way as the military is polluted with the poorly educated, the immoral, and the incompetent.

 

[FruitandNut]

The US Army is that stretched these days that training a discipline is experiencing shortcutting. Its getting a bit like those Spitfire pilots who after a few flying hours experience were expected to lockhorns with the enemy sh*te hawks.

Give a jumpy young guy a loaded gun and stick him in 'injun territory' and 'blue on blue' types incidents are bound to arise.

Many moons ago my own dad was a jumpy 18yr old in Palestine who actually shot at his own shadow! He was out in 'Injun country' for the first time. It was certainly not the last time he was dumped into hostile and dangerous situations, but it was the last time he shot at his shadow.

 

[TAE]

I think Unrealpolitik works in German...

Irrealpolitik.


Same negation as rational / irrational.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Have you ever served in the military? No? Then shut up, they don't need your protection from the nasty words.

Warriors, FFS

Having been on joint exercises with US infantry all Rogue Yam's wittering provoked from me was laughter.

Not worth rolling your eyes over, Bob. He doesn't have a clue, and if he did he wouldn't be smug, he'd be worried (if, of course, he actually has any fellow feeling for US troops).