of course, i forgot about that.
the op did seem worried that they wouldn't get any maternity pay if she was sacked though, so i was just trying to reassure him that it wouldn't make a massive difference... not that she will get sacked of course.
URGENT advice please!
- Thread starter 1927
- Start date
the op did seem worried that they wouldn't get any maternity pay if she was sacked though, so i was just trying to reassure him that it wouldn't make a massive difference... not that she will get sacked of course.
chainsaw cat
Tea. Biccies. Happy now?
Top advice - I'd only beef it up by saying 'don't go in to any disciplinary without representation, even if it's just a friend to take notes'
PS relevant legislation is based on Pregnant Workers Directive, 92/85/EEC
I am clued up on the H&S aspects but not the employment rights bits... they are in sections 71-75 and s 99 of the Employment Rights Act 1996 as amended and the Maternity and Parental Leave Regulations 1999 (google 'em!)
Bloody employers.
1927
Funnier than he thinks he is.
Panic over folks, thanks for all the concern, but it is all a bit weird.
She attended meeting, with a colleague.
They asked about the reason for her leaving early. She admitted it , but said that she always asked permission, had always completed her duties, and always ensured that the night shift were in and that her unit was not left understaffed.
On the second charge, that she had had an argument with a registered nurse within ear shot of service users, they did not even bring it up. Mrs 27 asked about it, and they said that they had been told that she was actually trying to calm the situation, and that what she said to the nurse, the reason for the argument, was correct and she was right to have done so!! They actually knew the full circumstances of the argument before they even wrote the letter so why was she even asked to answer for the incident? Incidentally the nurse was not even questioned and is not facing any discipline!!!
Up shot of meeting is that Mrs 27 still has her job and was not even given a verbal warning, although they said that she only kept job because she was leaving for maternity leave soon and would have been instantly dismissed otherwise, they rang HR during the meeting to come to this decision!!!! Wtf, I am obviously pleased that she still has a job, but either it was a dismissable offence or it wasn't, don't tell me they let her keep her job because they felt sorry for her!!!
They also said that she can have the same number of shifts, but can only work half days rather than full, so in effect hours have been halved. They justified this on basis of her pregnancy. This raises a new problem that I can foresee, so need a bit more advice.
Surley they should not be cutting her hours cause of condition, but should instead be finding her work she can doing in her state.
Her contract is for 34 hours a week which she will no longer be getting.
She is taking three weeks annual leave before her matrenity leave starts, something which government website advises is best practice, but which we had to fight for. Now as holiday pay is calculated on avregae of previous 4 weeks her holiday pay is going to be shit because it will be based on half the hours she would normally have worked. Furthermore if they use this same calculation to work our her SMP we wont even see the 117 a week? I think we have beens tithced up a bit.
If she starts her maternity leave and then we kick up one holy fuss about the lack of pay, if it happens, is there anything they can do? Surely they wont be able to sack her once she is off!
She attended meeting, with a colleague.
They asked about the reason for her leaving early. She admitted it , but said that she always asked permission, had always completed her duties, and always ensured that the night shift were in and that her unit was not left understaffed.
On the second charge, that she had had an argument with a registered nurse within ear shot of service users, they did not even bring it up. Mrs 27 asked about it, and they said that they had been told that she was actually trying to calm the situation, and that what she said to the nurse, the reason for the argument, was correct and she was right to have done so!! They actually knew the full circumstances of the argument before they even wrote the letter so why was she even asked to answer for the incident? Incidentally the nurse was not even questioned and is not facing any discipline!!!
Up shot of meeting is that Mrs 27 still has her job and was not even given a verbal warning, although they said that she only kept job because she was leaving for maternity leave soon and would have been instantly dismissed otherwise, they rang HR during the meeting to come to this decision!!!! Wtf, I am obviously pleased that she still has a job, but either it was a dismissable offence or it wasn't, don't tell me they let her keep her job because they felt sorry for her!!!
They also said that she can have the same number of shifts, but can only work half days rather than full, so in effect hours have been halved. They justified this on basis of her pregnancy. This raises a new problem that I can foresee, so need a bit more advice.
Surley they should not be cutting her hours cause of condition, but should instead be finding her work she can doing in her state.
Her contract is for 34 hours a week which she will no longer be getting.
She is taking three weeks annual leave before her matrenity leave starts, something which government website advises is best practice, but which we had to fight for. Now as holiday pay is calculated on avregae of previous 4 weeks her holiday pay is going to be shit because it will be based on half the hours she would normally have worked. Furthermore if they use this same calculation to work our her SMP we wont even see the 117 a week? I think we have beens tithced up a bit.
If she starts her maternity leave and then we kick up one holy fuss about the lack of pay, if it happens, is there anything they can do? Surely they wont be able to sack her once she is off!
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
They seem to think they have, but no
There's no huge rush (3 months outside limit), but M, yer missus should do summat about this imo. No immediate rush. Take time off this long weekend and relax. That's the most important thing.
Come back to it Tuesday or Wednesday innit, fighting fit.
You should get your other half to give Acas a call - they can tell her what's what legally.. Think the website is www.acas.org.uk
I don't see how they can change her terms and conditions without a change of contract. She should still work her normal hours , or she will be deemed to have accepted the change.
Could she write a letter confirming what happened during the meeting, that she does no accept any change of her employment conditions without any prior consultation and if this happens she will have no other option but to take further advice and action?
copy it to the CEO of the organisation, HR head.
... time to seek professional help, join a union etc
Could she write a letter confirming what happened during the meeting, that she does no accept any change of her employment conditions without any prior consultation and if this happens she will have no other option but to take further advice and action?
copy it to the CEO of the organisation, HR head.
... time to seek professional help, join a union etc
... agreed, trying to cut their maternity bill at the 90% stage, and to deprive your missus out of holiday pay as well... holiday is earned, so if you work for 11 months ful time, and then 1 month part time (very crude example...) the your holiday entitlement is proportionate.
Is this a big company (you talk about an HR dept) or just a small set-up? Will they be confirming ALL that was said during the disciplinary in writing?
GET REPRESENTATION ASAP.
I know people have said you have time, but any period of time between the notification of a change in pay & conditions (which this is) & grievance or appeal could be relevant, as it could be 'deemed as acceptance'.
Are their many, (or any), other colleagues with small (under school age) kids... or have I just got my conspiraloon hat on....
Good luck....
1927
Funnier than he thinks he is.
It is a large company,but they seem very unprofessional. I have told Mrs 27 to go to work tomorrow as usual, but we will write a letter for her to hand in as soon as she starts explianing that she will be working half day UNDER DURESS and that she does not accept any change in her terms and conditions ane expects all holiday and SMP to be paid on the basis that she is a fulltime employee with contrcated hours of 37.5 hours per week.
Hopefully this will buy us the time to conuslt ACAS on tuesday, does this seem reasonable and correct to everyone?
Hopefully this will buy us the time to conuslt ACAS on tuesday, does this seem reasonable and correct to everyone?
Yes, good move.
sounds like a good move, definitely get it all recorded in writing.
as is the 'working under duress', however, my first inclination is to work the normal hours - that is in mr's 27's contract, she's not accepted any change of contract in writing so she should keep going as normal...
anyway, sounds like you're doing the right thing, keep us all informed how it goes!
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
This is a change to her contract. She MUST agree to the change in the contract for it to come into affect - has she had a revised contract or amendment letter to say what her amended hours are? Has she accepted the amendment?
Seek legal advice immediately. It sounds like they're up to no good to me.
Seek legal advice immediately. It sounds like they're up to no good to me.
1927
Funnier than he thinks he is.
Ok. Having a bbq right noe buyt just knocked this up, can anyone tell me if this is ok or should we change it? Mrs 27 is going to work tmrrw with this letter in hand!
Further to my disciplinary meeting on Friday last I understand that I will not reclusive either a written or verbal warning. I do however understand that my shifts will be cut from full to half days as a result of your risk assessment due to my impending pregnancy.
In order that I can fully understand the implications of your decision I would be grateful if you would please clarify at the earliest opportunity the following points.
Is the reduction in hours a disciplinary measure or a result of the risk assessment carried out.
Will the rest of my service up to my impending maternity leave be paid on the basis of hours worked or on my contracted hours of 37.5hrs per week.
Will my holiday pay be paid at the rate of 37.5 hrs per week.
Will my Statutory maternity pay be paid on the basis of my contracted hours of 37.5hrs per week.
If the answer to any of the above , with the exception of point one is NO then I believe a material change of conditions of my terms and conditions of employment is being imposed on me. If this is the case I wish to inform you that I will work half shifts only under duress and that I expect still to be paid my full entitlement of 37.5hrs per week upto the commencement of my statutory maternity pay, and that I would expect SMP to be based on my contracted hours as a minimum.
I would appreciate an answer by the end of my shift today, but wish to advise you that unless I hear to the contrary I will be leaving work at 1400 hours, but will expect payment for a full shift if you are unable to provide me with other suitable work.
Cheers
Further to my disciplinary meeting on Friday last I understand that I will not reclusive either a written or verbal warning. I do however understand that my shifts will be cut from full to half days as a result of your risk assessment due to my impending pregnancy.
In order that I can fully understand the implications of your decision I would be grateful if you would please clarify at the earliest opportunity the following points.
Is the reduction in hours a disciplinary measure or a result of the risk assessment carried out.
Will the rest of my service up to my impending maternity leave be paid on the basis of hours worked or on my contracted hours of 37.5hrs per week.
Will my holiday pay be paid at the rate of 37.5 hrs per week.
Will my Statutory maternity pay be paid on the basis of my contracted hours of 37.5hrs per week.
If the answer to any of the above , with the exception of point one is NO then I believe a material change of conditions of my terms and conditions of employment is being imposed on me. If this is the case I wish to inform you that I will work half shifts only under duress and that I expect still to be paid my full entitlement of 37.5hrs per week upto the commencement of my statutory maternity pay, and that I would expect SMP to be based on my contracted hours as a minimum.
I would appreciate an answer by the end of my shift today, but wish to advise you that unless I hear to the contrary I will be leaving work at 1400 hours, but will expect payment for a full shift if you are unable to provide me with other suitable work.
Cheers
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
I would put '...expect payment for a full shift in line with my existing contract...', and the other changes suggested
LilMissHissyFit
Disturbed in a pink bra
Very crude. Very blatant. Very illegal.
By the time it gets sorted out she'll probably have done the half shifts for full pay, which is nice.
This is true. They cannot use her pregnancy nor having a child to cut her hours. Its completely illegal
1927... do you and Mrs1927 have legal protection cover on your house insurance policy? You may be able to get representation for nowt it you do. Regardless, Id be seeing a solicitor asap
Try to find out who the union rep is. Even if your wife is not a member they might still be able to advise and sit in further meetings (they tend to chose to become reps because they feel strongly about these things in the first place and at the very least would know precedents and contact names within the company as well as the relevant pieces of legislation to quote in correspondence).
learydeary
Red Morty Kidd
HSE guidance
http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2003/e03043.htm
New and Expectant Mothers at Work -
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg373hp.pdf
Make sure you have a copy of your risk assesment -this should detail the support you need to carry out your normal duties
without having a risk assessment they have no proof she is unable to carry out duties and if it does they must detail how they are supporting her
It's also the same when someone returns to work after the pregnancy
http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2003/e03043.htm
New and Expectant Mothers at Work -
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg373hp.pdf
Make sure you have a copy of your risk assesment -this should detail the support you need to carry out your normal duties
without having a risk assessment they have no proof she is unable to carry out duties and if it does they must detail how they are supporting her
It's also the same when someone returns to work after the pregnancy
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
One thing I'd strongly recommend is that she gets a receipt from whoever she hands the letter to along the lines of "I received this letter from Mrs 27 qt xx.xx am on xx/xx/08", because I've (unfortunately more than once) encountered cases where letters/documents conveniently "go missing".
Separately posting a copy marked "handed to xxxx on date/time" might help if there's a possibility of this - recorded delivery if really worried about this as a possibility
1927
Funnier than he thinks he is.
Mrs 27 gave the letter to manager this morning after she had verbally asked whetehr she was going to be paid fully for the enxt two weeks, manager said she would only be paid for hours worked.
Having read letter manager said that in that case Mrs 27 would have to work 37.5 hours a week, when Mrs 27 challenged this on the basis that if the risk assessment had indicated she shouldnt work that much due to pregnancy then how could she override that? Manage rtsaid she had no other work she cut be put on, and that if she wasn't upto doing the job she should go on the sick!!!wtf.
She has now told Mrs 27 that she must work 5 8 hr shifts a week to make up her hours!
I phoned ACAS, and having got thru to someone after 25minutes, they were next to useless. Mrs 27 had better luck tho and they even rang me to talk it thru and woman said we should just take out a grievance.
It is now apparent that Mrs27 will be receiving a written warning as a result of the disciplinary, but as yet some 5days later we have still not received anything in writing. Mrs 27 requested a copy of her risk assessment and was told they will post it out, like wouldnt it juts be easier to give a copy in person, if it exists! The up shot of all this is that the management have put absolutely nothing in writing so far, we cannot appeal against the warning, because we dont know on waht grounds and dont know who the next person up the line is! We cannot challenge the grounds for reducing hours because we dont have any clarification of the reasons. This woman is really pissing me off now, she obvioulsy has no idea whatsoever about the law or how to treat employees. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!
Meanwhile all this uncertainty and confusion is stressing Mrs 27 out no end and really depressing her.
Having read letter manager said that in that case Mrs 27 would have to work 37.5 hours a week, when Mrs 27 challenged this on the basis that if the risk assessment had indicated she shouldnt work that much due to pregnancy then how could she override that? Manage rtsaid she had no other work she cut be put on, and that if she wasn't upto doing the job she should go on the sick!!!wtf.
She has now told Mrs 27 that she must work 5 8 hr shifts a week to make up her hours!
I phoned ACAS, and having got thru to someone after 25minutes, they were next to useless. Mrs 27 had better luck tho and they even rang me to talk it thru and woman said we should just take out a grievance.
It is now apparent that Mrs27 will be receiving a written warning as a result of the disciplinary, but as yet some 5days later we have still not received anything in writing. Mrs 27 requested a copy of her risk assessment and was told they will post it out, like wouldnt it juts be easier to give a copy in person, if it exists! The up shot of all this is that the management have put absolutely nothing in writing so far, we cannot appeal against the warning, because we dont know on waht grounds and dont know who the next person up the line is! We cannot challenge the grounds for reducing hours because we dont have any clarification of the reasons. This woman is really pissing me off now, she obvioulsy has no idea whatsoever about the law or how to treat employees. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!
Meanwhile all this uncertainty and confusion is stressing Mrs 27 out no end and really depressing her.
1927
Funnier than he thinks he is.
Thanks I might send something over later.
Am printing out the HSE stuff linked to earlier in the thread so Mes27 can take it to work tmrw with the rekevant bits highlighted for the sad cow!
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
No worries, we'll throw the book at em innit.
This is fascinating. Good luck to you. I hate it when people are bullied and treated like 2nd rate citizens. It's not on. This mob your missus works for is in for a rude shock.
