Donna Ferentes
jubliado
Because it will achieve nothing, settle nothing and satisfy nobody.shaneC said:
Urban Green Fair is go. Brockwell Park Sunday 9th Sept
- Thread starter shaneC
- Start date
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
By 'cycnicism' do you mean 'demand for hard evidence'?shaneC said:
Sure I have doubts about the independence of the inquiry and so on, but contrary to what the patronising 9/11 'truthseekers' like to think, lots of other people *have* looked at the evidence for a grand conspiracy, and while there are some circumstantially suspicious things around 9/11, that's simply not the same as hard evidence of a conspiracy. You don't have hard evidence. No one has it. Until you do have it, constantly harping on about it will get you nowhere. And speculating about 'the Israelis' wiring the towers with explosives or whatever will only make you look like fools.
Sometimes evidence is inconclusive. Drawing conclusions from inconclusive evidence is stupid. So why not focus on things we do have evidence for? I saw and heard more talk of 9/11 conspiracy at the Green Fair than about the UK government's stitch-up on nuclear power. Hello? Priorities?
vauxhallmum
had to scrap the cheap car
someone explain the whistling! - it's driving me mad 
editor said:
I have a friend who used to be an activist. Now he spends all his time in the murky corners of "exactly which bits of military intelligence started which political faction in which war".
Which might be interesting if he produced a coherent, referenced narrative (what we might call the "Lobster/NftB" approach). But he doesn't. He jus wanders around not doing anything except discovering things. Shame, really.
Anyway, I'm a bit worried that you're all detracting from the most important issue of the day:
WHO STOLE THE LICENSING APPLICATION POSTERS???
Until we can get to the bottom of these nefarious doings, NO FESTIVAL WILL BE SAFE!!!
*ahem*
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
To be fair, nobody's ever obtained evidence for anything without first "harping on" about it until enough interest is garnered to make efforts to obtain that evidence.Brainaddict said:
After all - we don't take the word of a suspected criminal at face value on the grounds that they had conducted a full investigation of themself and concluded that they "found no evidence" of their own wrongdoing? Or that they had paid a mate to conduct an "independant" investigation that, surprise surprise, came to the same conclusion?
Jumping to conclusions over anything is wrong, but asking serious questions about soemthing is another matter entirely.
Hey everyone,
Thanks for the positive comments on the fair. I’m happy to see a debate spring up from it too. I was the organiser of the social justice zone, and well you can never tell how some stalls will behave ::sigh:: but in their defence the 9/11 lot are by far NOT the looniest of groups I’ve met in my time. Still whatever it is, every inquiry into anything should be independent, especially into an action that has then excused a state to act aggressively without accountability, there should most definitely be an independent enquiry. anyways that’s my view on that.
Someone on the board mentioned how the green message was being hijacked by other causes. I’m sorry you feel this way. The entire fair was jam-packed full of educational and practical advice on how to live greenly. if there were issues such as taking Westminster to court or deaths in police custody was because it was held in the social justice zone. While we had a lot of green films and green speakers, I also wanted to ensure we shared the platform with local issues of social justice. Injustice the film highlights the importance of an independent enquiry, and we find out how the film has been blatantly censored by the police over the years check: http://www.injusticefilm.co.uk/filmfacts.html. Brian Douglas was a local man who died in police custody, his sister did the Q&A after the film, and I’m glad we gave them the platform as it is a relevant and an important issue still and definitely worth supporting considering the lengths that have gone into censoring it.
On the green side there were various angles covered too. Cynthia's speech was really interesting and it was quite educational to see how the greenies got on in the states. As well as Power of the Community, I hope people got to catch the satirical short called "cheat neutral" http://www.cheatneutral.com/. Also footage from the G8 and Climate Change Camp provided by Reel News - the Schnews lot. And the last screening was from Matsai who did a fantastic audiovisual set. It was a really pleasant surprise as this happened completely at last minute. he mixed in music from Coldcut and Inside us all with green images and clips from the film metropolis and green energy such as windmills etc. all pointing towards the message of urban and green living which of course was what the whole fair was about, but in a cool and funky way.
Anyway, there is another issue quite rightly pointed out by Rich. Indeed, who did steal the licensing application posters?! Although it was probably a better event without the license, it doesn’t excuse the bugger who did it. Unless it was Mr Wind or Mr Rain- they can be a bit of a naughty pair that pick on posters and act quite unaccountably. Maybe we should have a independent enquiry!
All in all I’m happy to see people had a good time and are discussing it. We would really appreciate any footage or further pics of the day so that we can put up on the website.
Thank you all for coming and hope to see you there next year.
Thanks for the positive comments on the fair. I’m happy to see a debate spring up from it too. I was the organiser of the social justice zone, and well you can never tell how some stalls will behave ::sigh:: but in their defence the 9/11 lot are by far NOT the looniest of groups I’ve met in my time. Still whatever it is, every inquiry into anything should be independent, especially into an action that has then excused a state to act aggressively without accountability, there should most definitely be an independent enquiry. anyways that’s my view on that.
Someone on the board mentioned how the green message was being hijacked by other causes. I’m sorry you feel this way. The entire fair was jam-packed full of educational and practical advice on how to live greenly. if there were issues such as taking Westminster to court or deaths in police custody was because it was held in the social justice zone. While we had a lot of green films and green speakers, I also wanted to ensure we shared the platform with local issues of social justice. Injustice the film highlights the importance of an independent enquiry, and we find out how the film has been blatantly censored by the police over the years check: http://www.injusticefilm.co.uk/filmfacts.html. Brian Douglas was a local man who died in police custody, his sister did the Q&A after the film, and I’m glad we gave them the platform as it is a relevant and an important issue still and definitely worth supporting considering the lengths that have gone into censoring it.
On the green side there were various angles covered too. Cynthia's speech was really interesting and it was quite educational to see how the greenies got on in the states. As well as Power of the Community, I hope people got to catch the satirical short called "cheat neutral" http://www.cheatneutral.com/. Also footage from the G8 and Climate Change Camp provided by Reel News - the Schnews lot. And the last screening was from Matsai who did a fantastic audiovisual set. It was a really pleasant surprise as this happened completely at last minute. he mixed in music from Coldcut and Inside us all with green images and clips from the film metropolis and green energy such as windmills etc. all pointing towards the message of urban and green living which of course was what the whole fair was about, but in a cool and funky way.
Anyway, there is another issue quite rightly pointed out by Rich. Indeed, who did steal the licensing application posters?! Although it was probably a better event without the license, it doesn’t excuse the bugger who did it. Unless it was Mr Wind or Mr Rain- they can be a bit of a naughty pair that pick on posters and act quite unaccountably. Maybe we should have a independent enquiry!
All in all I’m happy to see people had a good time and are discussing it. We would really appreciate any footage or further pics of the day so that we can put up on the website.
Thank you all for coming and hope to see you there next year.
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
Anyone who's mind is 100% made up on something when the total facts are still unclear is making a mistake, obviously. That doesn't (or shouldn't) detract from the efforts of more intelligent, logical questioning from other people.editor said:
Basically, just because some people are leaping to silly conclusions on a given matter doesn't invalidate the original question being asked.
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
Exactly. They're asking questions, then providing answers - all according to what they already believe.editor said:
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
Probably not the smartest approach, no.editor said:
But the fact that some are handling this issue rather cackhandedly does not invalidate the issue itself as a whole.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
beany82 said:
Whether or not "sharing the platform" with other causes is appropriate depends on what the intended purpose of the event was. This was a bit unclear to me. If it's a bit of fun in Brockwell park for people already sympathetic to the "green" cause and interested in hearing people talk about a few other issues as well, then that's fine, although as far as the green message is concerned, it's mainly a case of preaching to the converted.
If the idea is to win over people who are sceptical about or ignorant of the green agenda, then I think the mix of issues being presented is very important. If you want to persuade your average, not particularly environmentally conscious, punter that things like recycling, energy efficiency and sustainability are worth taking seriously, then you have to present them with your arguments in a convincing way. I really don't think that an event with 9/11 loons, dodgy alternative healing practices and the like is going to help with this in the slightest.
On a slightly different point, even presenting things in a politicised way will put off a lot of people. Personally I don't think environmentalism needs necessarily to be a political thing - with regards to carbon output and global warming, for example, this can be viewed in an entirely scientific and pragmatic way (we need to stop it happening and base the way in which we do this on sound scientific evidence) which can be as acceptable to someone coming from a right-wing as to to someone coming from a left-wing point of view. Obviously I'm risking starting a whole other argument there but I hope you can see what Imean.
I'm afraid that if I was sceptical about the importance of taking green issues seriously (as it happens I'm not and I do) I would very likely have arrived at the park, seen a lot of "hippy nonsense", enjoyed laughing at it all for an hour or so, and gone to the pub. Even if there were some very worthwhile causes buried amongst the other stuff.
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
No, just the more general questioning of 9/11 stuff. Obviously there are some very silly theories doing the rounds (such as the hologram planes one - was that serioulsy put forward, btw?), but healthy, rational and analytical questioning of the official line on it is something else entirely. Any society that stops asking "but..." and "why..." is not heading anywhere good, imo.editor said:
editor
hiraethified
But you're missing the point. The whole 911 thing has been completely and utterly hijacked by the kind of TROOFSEEKERS we saw on Sunday who aren't interested in healthy questioning or even a proper investigation..poster342002 said:
All they want is their preconceived ideas that it was all an evil conspiracy confirmed, and they're not fussy what sources they use to get their affirmation.
I was forwarded a 9/11 link today by one of the festival organisers suggesting that I should check out this 'balanced' book.
And guess what? The blurb had the same old pile of highly selective quotes, blatant misrepresentations and repeated falsehoods e.g.: "The Twin Towers had been hit by aircraft, but the Twin Towers had been designed, according to their architects, to survive a hit by a Boeing 707".
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
That, sadly, can happen with any type of debate or movement or whatever. If everyone else just leaves the scene and abandones it to them, then it'll stay that way.editor said:
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
Don't spend your time on any of them if you don't want to. If a subject interests you, study up on it, investigate and discuss it. If not, don't. Sounds straightforward to me.rich! said:
gaijingirl
Well-Known Member
I must have selective vision. I saw and (really) enjoyed the funny bikes, the bicycle workshop (ok perhaps there is a theme here... ), a stall on how to pimp your home - green style, lots of great food and had a chat with the Friends of the Earth guy. I did see quite a bit of alternative therapy stuff that I'm not interested in especially but just ignored it. There were plenty of people who were interested - so that's their business. I didn't notice the 9/11 people at all!! I also agree the lack of alcohol made it a nice change from other events (although I did see some sneaky cider here and there!! ) I thought it was a nice mix and seemed to cater for a good range of interests - even though they might not have all been my own.
), a stall on how to pimp your home - green style, lots of great food and had a chat with the Friends of the Earth guy. I did see quite a bit of alternative therapy stuff that I'm not interested in especially but just ignored it. There were plenty of people who were interested - so that's their business. I didn't notice the 9/11 people at all!! I also agree the lack of alcohol made it a nice change from other events (although I did see some sneaky cider here and there!! ) I thought it was a nice mix and seemed to cater for a good range of interests - even though they might not have all been my own.gaijingirl said:I must have selective vision. I saw and (really) enjoyed the funny bikes, the bicycle workshop (ok perhaps there is a theme here...
yes its quite interesting that there was so much going on and that so much attention is being paid to A stall that were not even given a platform to speak. You can never tell how some organisations will behave, they just stuck out a bit because they were fairly controversial and well from what i gather had a bit of a go at Mark. I agree with Shane, Mark can handle these things for himself and with any fair/festival with a message there will always be some org ranting rather than engaging. In any case im sure with future Urban Green Fairs there will be many more stalls
Id like to know if anyone liked the films and if they have any suggestions for next year. what else would you like to see included in the fair? if you thought the health area was too hippie what woud you like to see there instead?
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
One reason the Green Party might want to keep a bit of distance from some of the 9/11 truth brigade is that some of them are claiming that the whole science behind the climate change debate is a conspiracy to keep us all down. I went to a showing of Oil, Smoke and Mirrors at the Ritzy a few weeks ago and had a leaflet thrust into my hand dismssing climate change as just another Govt scare story.
For what it's worth I think the official 9/11 story has problems, but the Truth brigade are kinda odd.
For what it's worth I think the official 9/11 story has problems, but the Truth brigade are kinda odd.
secretlondon
New Member
I didn't go but the reports I heard mentioned the alt health quacks not the 9/11 loons. A lot of that stuff is just a way of extracting money from the stupid. We do actually have science on our side, you wouldn't know that to meet some of our friends..
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
Yes, I was at that too.co-op said:
