Universal morality and Truth

[fela fan]

May be I should have worded it "only narrow minded egotists believe they have found universal truth", anyone who could see outside their little world would know that there is no such thing.

No such thing? Can you expand on that kameron?

 

[NoEgo]

I've answered that in my thread mate!

But since this is a new one, here is the answer again, in shortened form:

truth is that which is timeless.

And because it's timeless it is immutable, and it cannot be broken.

Not sure I get what you mean totally. Do you mean it's a bit like The Matrix; there is no spoon?

 

[Jonti]

... at there is no such thing (as universal truth)

except this one, of course!

Recursively.*

*OK, I know Kameron is talking about Fela's Truth, not ordinary propositional truth. Just couldn't resist.

 

[fela fan]

Not sure I get what you mean totally. Do you mean it's a bit like The Matrix; there is no spoon?

Unfortunately i know nothing about any matrix or spoon!

What i mean is that the stuff in this world that is timeless belongs to the truth. Time belongs to humans and their interpretations of the world.

Only two dimensions: space and time. For humans.

For animals and the rest of nature, just one dimension, space. Notwithstanding that humans can be timeless at times, and therefore are only subject to space. That is truth.

 

[fela fan]

except this one, of course!

Recursively.*

*OK, I know Kameron is talking about Fela's Truth, not ordinary propositional truth. Just couldn't resist.

Ah no! Propositional truth is not the one i talk of. That is about right and wrong according to human interpretation.

And the one that kameron says does not exist, is in fact the truth.

 

[Kameron]

And the one that kameron says does not exist, is in fact the truth.

I really don't think that you understand the word recursively. Jonti is bang on the head & nail on the money with his post.

 

[fractionMan]

Why do people think that there must be some sort of universal truth?

 

[NoEgo]

Why do people think that there must be some sort of universal truth?

Because if you believe there is a beginning and an end to the universe (either expanding or contracting) then there must be defined laws which dictate how everything in the universe behaves and progresses. Thats for the physical bit. As for the morality bit.......

 

[Kameron]

Because if you believe there is a beginning and an end to the universe (either expanding or contracting) then there must be defined laws which dictate how everything in the universe behaves and progresses. Thats for the physical bit. As for the morality bit.......

OK supposing we ditch the search for universal truth in human morality as a lost cause in both the sense that you can't find it and those who think they have cannot be convinced that their own deeply held believe doesn't necessarily apply to all people at all time.

Next up, the second religion, the deification of science as a provider of answers for human kind. First off is that I don't doubt that it does and since its precepts follow from logical reasoning rather than the ramblings of psychotic sexually repressed fantasists it does tend to serve us better in the search for right and wrong than religion tends to. But, the ultimate goal of physics, the laws that govern the reason we are here and how we will cease to be here, the GUT. Science has looked for this since the first theories; over time we see that different things like electricity and magnetism are really just different expressions of the same thing. When you can prove that this is the case everything seems more elegant and that search isn't wrong. However it is misleading, I believe, to hope to find a universal truth but this route, we find boundary conditions which we know that the universe violates, a set of physical rules that govern our world need not be any more applicable to them than expecting someone living there understand English.

 

[fela fan]

OK supposing we ditch the search for universal truth in human morality as a lost cause in both the sense that you can't find it and those who think they have cannot be convinced that their own deeply held believe doesn't necessarily apply to all people at all time.

You've suddenly introduced a new concept here by adding 'in human morality' to universal truth.

I doubt very much such a thing exists.

Whereas a truth very definitely exists. But it's not about humans. We're simply a part of it. People will only ever find this truth when they stop asking questions.

Science or religion are not the path to finding this truth. The only path to finding it is an individual one. Religion or science or writers or thinkers may help one along that path, ie during the 'looking for' process, but the 'finding' can only be done individually.

 

[118118]

There is no part of the universe where deductive logic is not true (isn't there, do I have the wrong meaning of "true", I don't think I have). Isn't that as simple and clear as it gets.
Its a rule isn't it, just like any law that we could possibly put forward as universal. It may not always be syntactically valid (It cannot be applied to the proposition all dogs are brown), but syntacitical validity is a different thing to truth, isn't it?
I think this question may be grossly unfounded.

If I was rich (a) I would be happy (b). I am not rich (not a). Now, it cannot be said that because I am not rich I am not happy. Not a therefore not b, is invalid.
If any syllogism was syntactically valid (c) I would be true (d). You cannot say "not c therefore not d". Therefore, there is no deductive argument for the falsity of deductive logic. Not surprising there. Dunno if thats coinvincing, but I wokred it out, so I'll keep it...

In traditional logic propositions construed as having the form 'All S are P' were called universal... like 'all men are mortal'

I assume that this isn't what you have in mind, cos iI could just say that all dogs are dogs.

I guess you have to state whether you mean, universally syntactically valid, when you say "universal".

I gave it a go

What is "truth" What is "universality"

 

[Blagsta]

I've answered that in my thread mate!

But since this is a new one, here is the answer again, in shortened form:

truth is that which is timeless.

And because it's timeless it is immutable, and it cannot be broken.

or maybe