Unemployment soars..750,000 foreign workers in 2008

[durruti02]

Do these local kids actually want the jobs the foreign workers are doing or are you just assuming they do?

no they do not .. and this is the key issue that migration allows our thatcherite society to ignore .. that business can only exist with low wages and poor conditions that most kids will simply not accept ..

this is the first generation for many where jobs on offer to kids worse than those their parents had

 

[durruti02]

I think the point durruti makes is that (a) firms can get people (migrants and otherwise) to work for less than minimum wage as it is and (b) that they are willing to accept lower terms and conditions as they do so. This has an obvious effect on those people at the bottom of the wage scale that does not need the Daily Mail to point it out.

As I said above, there are two ways of looking at and dealing with this - the way the BNP and (to an extent) Gordon Brown + NL has looked at it with the whole British jobs for British workers thing, and then there is dealing with it on the basis of ensuring that noone at that level, migrant or otherwise, is working for such low pay, and in such insecure and unsafe conditions.

Of course the Government could have dealt with a large part of these problems before the economy nosedived, either via the proposed EU directive COD 2002/0149, or via the two Temporary and Agency Workers (Prevention of Less Favourable Treatment) Bills. Instead they killed the EU proposal, have killed off one of the Bills due to time and show every indication of killing the second one off.

^^ this

 

[Fedayn]

fed you accused me of not having a class position / critique .. did you really need it again? i have simply posted up some of the latest stats that show the numbers of non UK workers increasingly even while uk unemployment is increasing .. maybe i should have made my opinion clear in the OP but i assumed everyone knows it ( hence showing was saying this stuff in 2005) though this is wrong as new people join all the time so yes i should have been clearer etc

and who decides? the trade unions surely? workers power surely that is what we believe in? sons and daughters etc etc .. and how long? .. in different ways no time and many decades ..

Simply rehashing a DM articvle on here is the proverbial red rag surely!!??!!

Sons and daughters is a policy that in times of shortage can be disastrous, when our class has 'control' it becomes much more benign. Things aren't static and poor immigrants are part of our class aswell you know.

 

[nightbreed]

I think the point durruti makes is that (a) firms can get people (migrants and otherwise) to work for less than minimum wage as it is and (b) that they are willing to accept lower terms and conditions as they do so. This has an obvious effect on those people at the bottom of the wage scale that does not need the Daily Mail to point it out.

As I said above, there are two ways of looking at and dealing with this - the way the BNP and (to an extent) Gordon Brown + NL has looked at it with the whole British jobs for British workers thing, and then there is dealing with it on the basis of ensuring that noone at that level, migrant or otherwise, is working for such low pay, and in such insecure and unsafe conditions.

Of course the Government could have dealt with a large part of these problems before the economy nosedived, either via the proposed EU directive COD 2002/0149, or via the two Temporary and Agency Workers (Prevention of Less Favourable Treatment) Bills. Instead they killed the EU proposal, have killed off one of the Bills due to time and show every indication of killing the second one off.

The class position is to defend terms and conditions in the workplace. I think Durruti is going a cack handed way about it. Go into a factory and I believe you can make a case without resorting to the immigrant issue. In fact you can use the argument that it is flag waving British employers that would prefer non UK labour cos its cheaper than local. I have seen it on building sites in the last 3/4 years. Where I have raised the issue of defending existing terms and conditions, any deep felt anti immigrant arguments have been rejected. Ail reader views have by and large been kept to the minimum. But that is just my experience.

Now Im not saying Durruti is using the immigrant issue in a racist way cunts like the BNP and that pillock from Migrationwatch does. What I think needs to be realised is that if Trade Unionists, where they operate raise a class position to defend terms and conditions against the recession it will in the main cut accross the racist argument. Unfortunately as trade unions only cover a third (or there abouts) of the workforce that voice isnt being heard.

Whats worse is that the left are even tinyer and have less of a say in most industrial workplaces. Meanwhile the shit spewed from the Sun and the Daily Mail give the BNP cunts a leg up. New Labour have always defended the neo liberal, flexible employment conditions that allow the worst excesses of the capitalist class. So there is a major problem for the left to address which apart from the intervention at Lindsey earlier this year, the left are failing in.

 

[durruti02]

Simply rehashing a DM articvle on here is the proverbial red rag surely!!??!!

Sons and daughters is a policy that in times of shortage can be disastrous, when our class has 'control' it becomes much more benign. Things aren't static and poor immigrants are part of our class aswell you know.

1) i didn't rehash it i simply cnped it 2) red rags o urbanites?? do i give a ****??

principles like closed shop / sons and daughters / last one in first one out etc are never disasterous IF they are our control .. we are weak as we have lost communities / union power . there is currently NOTHING more important than trying to rebuild communities / unions

yes of course poor immigrants are part of our class .. this is not up for dispute and never was .. the issue remains how capital is shafting us all and specifically by destroying w/c organisation and community

 

[nightbreed]

1) i didn't rehash it i simply cnped it 2) rag rags .. do i give a ****??

sons and daughters is never disasterous IF it is our control .. we are weak as we have lost communities . there is currently NOTHING more important than trying to rebuild communities


yes of course poor immigrants are part of our class .. this is not up for dispute and never was .. the issue remains how capital is shafting us all and specifically by destroying w/c organisation and community

Go to bed Durruti its getting late

 

[durruti02]

The class position is to defend terms and conditions in the workplace. I think Durruti is going a cack handed way about it. Go into a factory and I believe you can make a case without resorting to the immigrant issue. In fact you can use the argument that it is flag waving British employers that would prefer non UK labour cos its cheaper than local. I have seen it on building sites in the last 3/4 years. Where I have raised the issue of defending existing terms and conditions, any deep felt anti immigrant arguments have been rejected. Ail reader views have by and large been kept to the minimum. But that is just my experience.

Now Im not saying Durruti is using the immigrant issue in a racist way cunts like the BNP and that pillock from Migrationwatch does. What I think needs to be realised is that if Trade Unionists, where they operate raise a class position to defend terms and conditions against the recession it will in the main cut accross the racist argument. Unfortunately as trade unions only cover a third (or there abouts) of the workforce that voice isnt being heard.

Whats worse is that the left are even tinyer and have less of a say in most industrial workplaces. Meanwhile the shit spewed from the Sun and the Daily Mail give the BNP cunts a leg up. New Labour have always defended the neo liberal, flexible employment conditions that allow the worst excesses of the capitalist class. So there is a major problem for the left to address which apart from the intervention at Lindsey earlier this year, the left are failing in.

but surely you have to be honest .. the left ( and union bureaucracy) have tied themselves in knots and frankly embaressed themselves by making out immigration is wonderful ( until this year!lol) .. the first thing the left need to do is state clearly why we have had a wave of migration .. and that it is part of neo-liberalism

ONCE we have stated this it is easier to put a class perspective on it .. it is impossible and dishonest ( and we see the result in the failure of the left and the rise of the bnp ) to pretend immigration is wonderful and then try to argue a class position .. it simply does not wash with people

 

[durruti02]

Go to bed Durruti its getting late

?

 

[nightbreed]

but surely you have to be honest .. the left ( and union bureaucracy) have tied themselves in knots and frankly embaressed themselves by making out immigration is wonderful ( until this year!lol) .. the first thing the left need to do is state clearly why we have had a wave of migration .. and that it is part of neo-liberalism

ONCE we have stated this it is easier to put a class perspective on it .. it is impossible and dishonest ( and we see the result in the failure of the left and the rise of the bnp ) to pretend immigration is wonderful and then try to argue a class position .. it simply does not wash with people

I think it was Marx who said Capitalism is International, or words to that effect.

I think the TUs do release the importance of defending terms and conditions and agreements. The debate should be about how. The left (with some exceptions) I think has failed in the task. The key is to build strong grass roots workplace organisation. The Union movement are slowly doing that (see RMT, PCS, GMB and Unite Strategy for Growth) But the left hasnt completelycaught on.

Labour moves and has done since the year dot. My family were UK migrants to Switzerland in the late 60s. We faced the shit from the racists in Switzerland then and when we moved back in the mid 70s we faced the shit from british racists even though we were Brits!! Fancy that, they were as thick as shit then!! Oddly my father got jobs via the international Trade Union movement. He was a printer and the print unions had links and contacts throughout Europe. That has been largely destroyed and needs to be rebuilt. Its Union control of immigration if you like. It, at the time defended terms and conditions. Thats another story.

Labour coming to this country now is to bolster the huge reserve army of of labour the capitalist needs to exist. They have the control. To the capitalist it doesnt matter if its an unemployed chav from Dagenham or a Polish builder from Gdansk. Its cheap labour they want and both Brown and CaMoron will make sure the get it.

The left needs to unite around terms, conditions and agreements. Thats the way to beat the fuckwits in the BNP and will answer the shit in the Sun and the Mail. But that needs to come from the lay /grass roots shop floor workers.
The left need to be there and they are not.

 

[durruti02]

I think it was Marx who said Capitalism is International, or words to that effect.

I think the TUs do release the importance of defending terms and conditions and agreements. The debate should be about how. The left (with some exceptions) I think has failed in the task. The key is to build strong grass roots workplace organisation. The Union movement are slowly doing that (see RMT, PCS, GMB and Unite Strategy for Growth) But the left hasnt completelycaught on.

Labour moves and has done since the year dot. My family were UK migrants to Switzerland in the late 60s. We faced the shit from the racists in Switzerland then and when we moved back in the mid 70s we faced the shit from british racists even though we were Brits!! Fancy that, they were as thick as shit then!! Oddly my father got jobs via the international Trade Union movement. He was a printer and the print unions had links and contacts throughout Europe. That has been largely destroyed and needs to be rebuilt. Its Union control of immigration if you like. It, at the time defended terms and conditions. Thats another story.

Labour coming to this country now is to bolster the huge reserve army of of labour the capitalist needs to exist. They have the control. To the capitalist it doesnt matter if its an unemployed chav from Dagenham or a Polish builder from Gdansk. Its cheap labour they want and both Brown and CaMoron will make sure the get it.

The left needs to unite around terms, conditions and agreements. Thats the way to beat the fuckwits in the BNP and will answer the shit in the Sun and the Mail. But that needs to come from the lay /grass roots shop floor workers.
The left need to be there and they are not.

yes ^^^ a few spot on points in there

 

[becky p]

Polish girl Justyna Plec, 21, who moved to the resort recently, disagreed. 'I earn £5.70 an hour in a coffee shop and pay taxes and national insurance like everyone else. But I have met with a lot of racism from locals who tell me to go back to my home country. .." [/B]
[/FONT][/I][/I][/B]

What a silly thing for her to say. It is not racism that makes people uneasy about the fact that so many cafe jobs and pub and restaurant work is taken by recent migrants. The people who are suffering racism are British Black and Asian people who find it more difficult to get jobs because of Eastern Europeans being seen as more attractive by employers.
And a lot of Polish people can be quite racist too.

 

[trevhagl]

The Daily Mail readers would be the first to complain if their businesses had a shorter supply of cheap labour so i've never understood their point!

 

[smokedout]

and who decides? the trade unions surely? workers power surely that is what we believe in? sons and daughters etc etc .. and how long? .. in different ways no time and many decades ..

you back on the people must apply to a trade union before they are allowed to move house position

fruitcake

in the nicest possible way

 

[nightbreed]

The Daily Mail readers would be the first to complain if their businesses had a shorter supply of cheap labour so i've never understood their point!

Their point is to sell papers in a circulation war. There is no sense to that.

 

[durruti02]

The Daily Mail readers would be the first to complain if their businesses had a shorter supply of cheap labour so i've never understood their point!

the point is clear mate .. they get cheap labour PLUS shitstirring and division .. they get the best of both worlds

 

[durruti02]

you back on the people must apply to a trade union before they are allowed to move house position

fruitcake

in the nicest possible way

ok how else do you want to organise society? if the workers/unions aren't doing it who is? the bosses clearly .. smoked DO you REALLY want a different society? well it has to be organised in one way or other.

 

[BarryB]

i have not qouted anything .. i have cnped form the article .. that qoute is from a 18 year girl from Westminister

and where do i blame migrants .. i have simply said ( and many times) companies should not be allowed to employ from outside an areas while there are people who could do those jobs. business are not some pro migrant social services .. they are parasites seeking the maximum exploitation . do you support that?

Please explain what you mean by not being allowed to employ from outside an area. Do you mean something live a construction site in Hackney wouldent be able to employ from someone living in south London?

 

[The39thStep]

Some Councils have a position of local recruiting for some jobs whereby applicants from designated areas are prioritised due to unemployment levels.Seems perfectly acceptable to me.

 

[smokedout]

Please explain what you mean by not being allowed to employ from outside an area. Do you mean something live a construction site in Hackney wouldent be able to employ from someone living in south London?

believe it or not he does

 

[berniedicters]

I think there is a debate to be had on the local vs imported labour issue, especially now at a time of economic hardship, but that article doesn't take us any nearer any kind of debate.

It's just the usual polarised "farriners coming in 'ere and taking our jobs" bollocks, larded with a bit of the usual "workshy benefits scroungers sitting around on their arses doing nuffin" rubbish. Both those statements are almost certainly somewhat true, but they don't represent the whole picture by any means.

I think we're looking at the relics of Thatcherite capitalism here - remember old "Chingford Strangler" Tebbit and his famous "get on your bike" thing? Well, that's what all those Polish, Romanian, etc people have done. That kind of capitalism was built on free movement of labour and an effectively open labour market, and we're only reaping now what we sowed 30 years ago.

But whatever all that is about, when outfits like MigrationWatch start getting quoted in pieces like this, you know that there's no interest in a proper debate - it's just another Trojan horse to allow their barely-concealed racist agenda, and presumably that of the DM, to be trotted out under our noses.

Anyone interested in debating the issues and addressing them will recognise that this entire issue needs to become less polarised, not more. Yet the Daily Mail persists in doing its level best to paint the question in as slanted a way as possible, and to give the closet racist groups like MigrationWatch a platform on which to "legitimately" make their dubious claims - you have to wonder how interested it (the DM) is in open debate and improving the situation...

 

[smokedout]

ok how else do you want to organise society? if the workers/unions aren't doing it who is? the bosses clearly .. smoked DO you REALLY want a different society? well it has to be organised in one way or other.

i dont want a different society where some politburo sits and makes judgements on whether people can excercise basic human rights

 

[Carousel]

ok how else do you want to organise society? if the workers/unions aren't doing it who is? the bosses clearly .. smoked DO you REALLY want a different society? well it has to be organised in one way or other.

Society is more a network of institutions, rather than one big system that can be subjected to a single permanent organisational philosophy. Now obviously, people with higher social status will have more influence on events. As an individual, Joe Punter might have an idea of what criteria make for high status or, if you like, earn influence. It would seem the suggestion here is that having low social status should confer greater influence over political policy, which when you think about it, is a concept without traction as it defies what status means.

Some Councils have a position of local recruiting for some jobs whereby applicants from designated areas are prioritised due to unemployment levels. Seems perfectly acceptable to me.

Government as employer of last resort. Low status jobs to soak the grunts up off the street. The devil makes work for idle hands.

 

[durruti02]

Please explain what you mean by not being allowed to employ from outside an area. Do you mean something live a construction site in Hackney wouldent be able to employ from someone living in south London?

no i mean something like what Diane Abbot said, that Homerton Hospital etc should employ local kids, often the children or granchildren of the people Enoch Powell brought over from the Caribbean to work in the NHS when we had full employment, rather than Phillipinos and Finns

btw how many Hackney kids are employed on the olympic site?

and what sense does it make to bus labour around when people who can do jobs are idle?

and what is the unemployment rate in Haggerston the ward you represent?

 

[durruti02]

Some Councils have a position of local recruiting for some jobs whereby applicants from designated areas are prioritised due to unemployment levels.Seems perfectly acceptable to me.

RACIST!!

 

[durruti02]

believe it or not he does

so hackney building project.. and you say they shoudl employ form south london? why? what sense doe sthat make when hackney has some of the highest unemployment in the UK

 

[durruti02]

Originally Posted by durruti02 View Post
ok how else do you want to organise society? if the workers/unions aren't doing it who is? the bosses clearly .. smoked DO you REALLY want a different society? well it has to be organised in one way or other.

i dont want a different society where some politburo sits and makes judgements on whether people can excercise basic human rights

sorry but wtf do you dig 'politbureau' out of what i said!! i have wuite clearly said workers ( for work places ) deciding and for local areas i would say local committees ..

and i thought you were an anarchist! so tell us how will things be sorted out in your society if you deny the people who work in a place to dictate or the people who live in a place to dictate

 

[durruti02]

I think there is a debate to be had on the local vs imported labour issue, especially now at a time of economic hardship, but that article doesn't take us any nearer any kind of debate.

It's just the usual polarised "farriners coming in 'ere and taking our jobs" bollocks, larded with a bit of the usual "workshy benefits scroungers sitting around on their arses doing nuffin" rubbish. Both those statements are almost certainly somewhat true, but they don't represent the whole picture by any means.

I think we're looking at the relics of Thatcherite capitalism here - remember old "Chingford Strangler" Tebbit and his famous "get on your bike" thing? Well, that's what all those Polish, Romanian, etc people have done. That kind of capitalism was built on free movement of labour and an effectively open labour market, and we're only reaping now what we sowed 30 years ago.

But whatever all that is about, when outfits like MigrationWatch start getting quoted in pieces like this, you know that there's no interest in a proper debate - it's just another Trojan horse to allow their barely-concealed racist agenda, and presumably that of the DM, to be trotted out under our noses.

Anyone interested in debating the issues and addressing them will recognise that this entire issue needs to become less polarised, not more. Yet the Daily Mail persists in doing its level best to paint the question in as slanted a way as possible, and to give the closet racist groups like MigrationWatch a platform on which to "legitimately" make their dubious claims - you have to wonder how interested it (the DM) is in open debate and improving the situation...

nail head .. you are spot on .. we NEED the debate but WHO is leading it?? free market scum who don't like foreigners and so want their cat and to eat it!

and the victims? .. while migrant labour doesn't generally care .. but the 'native' victims ( to repeat where i live that means afro carib but nationally mainly means white british) see the only people talking about their problems as being in the right ..

 

[Jessiedog]

free market scum who don't like foreigners and so want their cat and to eat it!

They come over here, eating our bloody cats....




Woof

 

[BarryB]

no i mean something like what Diane Abbot said, that Homerton Hospital etc should employ local kids, often the children or granchildren of the people Enoch Powell brought over from the Caribbean to work in the NHS when we had full employment, rather than Phillipinos and Finns

btw how many Hackney kids are employed on the olympic site?

and what sense does it make to bus labour around when people who can do jobs are idle?

and what is the unemployment rate in Haggerston the ward you represent?

Unemployment rate in Haggerston at January 2007 (latest figure I can find) is 7.1%. Expect it has gone up since for obvious reasons.

Dont know the figure for employment on Olympics site. Will try to find out if you let me know what age range you mean when you say "kids".

In the construction trade people have been bussed round for a long time.

 

[durruti02]

Unemployment rate in Haggerston at January 2007 (latest figure I can find) is 7.1%. Expect it has gone up since for obvious reasons.

Dont know the figure for employment on Olympics site. Will try to find out if you let me know what age range you mean when you say "kids".

In the construction trade people have been bussed round for a long time.

under capitalism in general people have always been bussed around not just builders and since the end of fordism and the start of neo liberalism this has increased vastly .. so this process is NOT natural .. it is part of capital .. it is NOT good for people and disempowers them .. socialists must oppose it

btw you really think unemployment in Haggerston is only c.10%?? i doubt more than 25% of BME between the age of 16 and 25 even 30 have work