Unemployment Movement

[isitme]

One where MPs might shit their breeks if theres a constant gathering of 100 people plus outside the JC+, and then outside their constituency surgeries?

The truth is that a well-organised grass-roots movement can do a lot, but to do so it has to stick to it's guns and it's original plans, not get drawn into other issues, and it has to fuck off any "left" organisation that tries to take it over for their own purposes.

totlly agree with this

but any worthy cause draws parasitical politico organisations like flies to shit and everyone loses interest cos it turns into dodgy paper sellers turning up every day and alienating everyone

i think that people need to stand up to the left as well as the right tbh (i mean the institutions and organisations. the ideas are something else entirely imo)

 

[butchersapron]

Capital is more dependent on its distribution networks today than ever before - the transport networks are chains that can easily be severed if people are serious and committed about it. As capital expands into the social factory so more and more places become modern day equivalenets of the old strategically important workshops that could could block the whole factories running. There are now more opportunities outside of the formal work setting than ever before.

 

[ViolentPanda]

stop asking the government to do it for you

there are unemployed people who need childcare, transport, accomodation etc and unemployed people who don't need it but are unable to get a normal job and support themselves but probably could help with childcare, transport etc

A big problem (at least as I see it) is that much of the childcare, for example, has been "professionalised". It used to be (certainly when I was a kid, and into the 80s) that you used to have several local "child-minders" who did it at an affordable rate, even though they didn't have NVQs and the like. Nowadays, it's seen as a profession and the cost is (unless you're on a "good" wage) prohibitive. If you're looking at £200-500 per month just on childcare costs, then even with what assistance the government offers, you're going to have to be taking home a nice bit of gelt to afford to actually live after paying for childcare.

to be honest i have quite a bit of contempt with left wing movements spending time and effort organising marches to tell parliment etc that they aren't happy with this or that policy, like they didn't realise that making a policy would upset people....

Yeah, but marches aren't just about "telling parliament", they're about publicising an issue or set of issues more widely through the accompanying press coverage.

 

[Spion]

Capital is more dependent on its distribution networks today than ever before - the transport networks are chains that can easily be severed if people are serious and committed about it. As capital expands into the social factory so more and more places become modern day equivalenets of the old strategically important workshops that could could block the whole factories running.

It's true.

It has a long precedent as a tactic. I can think of a few examples where peasants blocked roads and railways in struggles against the British empire. You can't exactly go on strike if you're a farmer.

 

[isitme]

well, the people who historically have campaigned against poverty, like the churches, now see asylum seekers and migrants as the priority.

it's working class areas where the BNP etc are making headway

it's part of this whole 'classless society' thing. the idea is to make society classless by just getting rid of the class who don't enjoy it from society. and low and behold the centre right achieve that and the anti society party does really well in the places where there are lots of people who don't feel like part of society....

 

[ViolentPanda]

I didn't say 'never mind' you disingenuous twat. I said it was something that should be done but that it was difficult and presents many problems compared to organising the employed (which is difficult enough).

The only time this type of thing has got anywhere in the UK is in the 30s, against a background of much better labour organisation and with the sponsorship of a major party (the CP)

What do you sugges then?

Me, I'd "suggest" not aiming for the sky until you've secured your home turf. Local "interest groups" basing their actions and demands on local conditions. What pertains re: unemployment in Tyneside may not be the same as in Merseyside, Truro or the South Coast. Deal with local issues, perhaps federate with other groups nationally, but don't get bogged down in "sticking it to the government" until you've put your message across locally. Give your local community reasons to trust and or respect you for working with your community for everyone's good, and some of them will stick with you when you push your message nationally, whether they're unemployed themselves, or not.
Just trying to develop a national movement can't really work at present, because there are too many interested parties waiting to jump on any bandwagon that might bolster their membership.

 

[butchersapron]

It's true.

It has a long precedent as a tactic. I can think of a few examples where peasants blocked roads and railways in struggles against the British empire. You can't exactly go on strike if you're a farmer.

Problem is, the theoretical possibility doesn't automatically translate into reality. I found during work with the unemployed that the main obstacle is that those who aren't already (for want of a better word) politicos just want to keep their head down and sort their own situation out - being unemployed sort of forces a default atomisation on you, something which is then amplified through job competition. I would imagine that would be a real obstacle today in somewhere like say the west midlands where you've got skilled workers now competing with each for limited work.

 

[audiotech]

hear, hear

You accuse the left of not getting involved in these issues (a cursory glance at history would prove you wrong on that) and then you cheer at suggestions to keep them out?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'd suggest a quick reading of the brief history of the attempts to organise against the JSA would be useful at this point.

If only to depress yourself.

 

[isitme]

Capital is more dependent on its distribution networks today than ever before - the transport networks are chains that can easily be severed if people are serious and committed about it. As capital expands into the social factory so more and more places become modern day equivalenets of the old strategically important workshops that could could block the whole factories running. There are now more opportunities outside of the formal work setting than ever before

why ask parliment for a benefits system? it isn't in their interests no matter what happens imo

it's never going to work to try and 'outmuscle' westminister/the city etc the goal should not be to try and intimidate them into changing their benefits system it should be trying to get into a position where noone is reliant on it.

the old fashioned thing of 'bringing the country to a standstill' is bollocks. who wants that to happen?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think that the potential power of the unemployed is greatly under estimated, if we look at the piquetero movement of Argentina for example we can see practical examples of the sort of disruption to economic life that well organised and determined people can make - despite not being in work.

Anyone can picket, they just need a strong self confident and well organised movement, which currently they don't have - but this looks like a step in the right direction.

The problem being that (IMHO anyway) the drive to self-organisation has been "educated" out of people, who've been brainwashed to believe that any political organising outwith the major parties is "wrong" or "bad", and of course the media don't help with the way they represent legitimate protest, either.

I agree it's pointless to look to the left for answers, they can't organise themselves at the moment.

Nor even the proverbial piss-up in a brewery, I sometimes think.

 

[audiotech]

People might not realise you had to sign on twice a week thirty years ago for a cash payment of around £5.00. Work camps were also in place for the long term unemployed. A friend was sent to one - he escaped.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Isn't 'signing on' common even in nominally Social Democratic countries like Sweden where historically the unemployed, etc were (at least till recently) treated fairly?

Signing on is common, but the way it's handled differes greatly. I don't know about now, but it used to be in Germany that you didn't go to the Job Centre-equivalent or DWP office-equivalent to sign on, you went to your local municipal headquarters, so you were just one person among hundreds going there for what could have been hundreds of different reasons, so the stigma was massively lessened.

 

[butchersapron]

Work camps in 1979 eh?

 

[butchersapron]

Unemployment benefit is ran by the unions in scandanavian countries i think.

 

[isitme]

A big problem (at least as I see it) is that much of the childcare, for example, has been "professionalised". It used to be (certainly when I was a kid, and into the 80s) that you used to have several local "child-minders" who did it at an affordable rate, even though they didn't have NVQs and the like. Nowadays, it's seen as a profession and the cost is (unless you're on a "good" wage) prohibitive. If you're looking at £200-500 per month just on childcare costs, then even with what assistance the government offers, you're going to have to be taking home a nice bit of gelt to afford to actually live after paying for childcare.

well people still mostly use family/friends networks in my (limited) experience. there is no reason that it shouldn't just be paying someone you know and trust a few quids to look after your kids when you go out. specially now we have the internet, having a network of people who can and will do that shouldn't be a problem at all

specially if you managed to get all the single mums together in any area and take it in turns to babysit so that it wasn't prohibitive. they would have experience with kids etc. I know it isn't that simple, there would be loads of details, but the way it is now i bet there are loads of single mums stuck at home who are perfectly capable of looking after an extra few younguns but just don't have contact with other capable single mums who could do it just as well and remove that restriction...


[quote[Yeah, but marches aren't just about "telling parliament", they're about publicising an issue or set of issues more widely through the accompanying press coverage.[/QUOTE]

but you are still relying on the press. the G20 and Tamil protests in london in april was a great example of how that works. G20 was a fairly small and peaceful protest compared to the tamil protest but it got 10 times more coverage because of the power structures

 

[ViolentPanda]

it's weird when you watch proper middle class people getting stuff done. it's never for something this important, like if you look at a posh village where they try to build a big supermarket or a club or something and suddenly all these very quiet supposedly apolitical people will organise in a week or two, have meetings, write letters, campaign etc

over stuff that is ultimately only going to only be a minor annoyance in their lives

something really important like this and you get all this rhetoric about demanding this and that and creating a movemen and nothing usually gets done cos you already get the kudos for sticking up for yourself etc so the result doesn't matter so much. if you are determined to try and change things through parliment i think you would do well to be middle class about it since the middle class own it

Thing is, you have to create a movement from the ground up if you want to have any hope of succeeding. Unfortunately, doing so leaves you very much open to the standard "divide and rule" tactics that the boss class are so fond of.
I don't know whether I'm misremembering (if so, I'm sure Butch can set me straight), but I'm sure that a couple of the Angry Brigade were involved with organising the unemployed in the early 70s, and had the standard "we're stopping your dole" tactic used on them.

 

[isitme]

Nor even the proverbial piss-up in a brewery, I sometimes think.

this is my area

 

[ViolentPanda]

it's working class areas where the BNP etc are making headway

Except that it isn't, it's actually the "lower middle class" areas populated by the "aspirational" ex-working class who want to leave behind any reminders of their former social "position" where the BNP are making headway. After all, the BNP, if (a very big "if", granted) they got in power, could erase whole swathes of embarrassing reminders for such aspirational people.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You accuse the left of not getting involved in these issues (a cursory glance at history would prove you wrong on that) and then you cheer at suggestions to keep them out?

I'm not saying "exclude them", I'm saying "don't allow them to take control of a movement that belongs to the whole community".
Bit of a difference.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Signing on is common, but the way it's handled differes greatly. I don't know about now, but it used to be in Germany that you didn't go to the Job Centre-equivalent or DWP office-equivalent to sign on, you went to your local municipal headquarters, so you were just one person among hundreds going there for what could have been hundreds of different reasons, so the stigma was massively lessened.

I'm pretty sure it's a similar system in some Scandanavian countries, with Unions being much more involved in helping unemployed workers back into employment and much less of a profit incentive for doing so (although this may be changing as we speak).

 

[isitme]

Thing is, you have to create a movement from the ground up if you want to have any hope of succeeding. Unfortunately, doing so leaves you very much open to the standard "divide and rule" tactics that the boss class are so fond of.
I don't know whether I'm misremembering (if so, I'm sure Butch can set me straight), but I'm sure that a couple of the Angry Brigade were involved with organising the unemployed in the early 70s, and had the standard "we're stopping your dole" tactic used on them.

no you're missing my point tho

the left is always creating movements it's really childish

there is always this rhetoric of starting a revolution and so on. a couple of my friends in newcastle do fucking shitloads of community work, just general shit, not changing the world, just doing stuff for free cos it's their day off and they don't want to spend it all day on the internet

it's mostly boring and 'apolitical' stuff like picking up rubbish or painting walls but we've all been learning about the mistakes of anarchist and communist movements in the 20th century for years and years and maybe we could come up with better arguments for pretty much any action, but they actually painted some walls

 

[isitme]

Except that it isn't, it's actually the "lower middle class" areas populated by the "aspirational" ex-working class who want to leave behind any reminders of their former social "position" where the BNP are making headway. After all, the BNP, if (a very big "if", granted) they got in power, could erase whole swathes of embarrassing reminders for such aspirational people.

that's only cos being middle class isn't as good as it used to be

now everyone is middle class we get the blame for football hooligans and everythign

 

[ViolentPanda]

why ask parliment for a benefits system? it isn't in their interests no matter what happens imo

But it is their interests. The Roman empire realised that over 2,000 years ago, and most rulers that have forgotten it have lived to rue the day.

it's never going to work to try and 'outmuscle' westminister/the city etc the goal should not be to try and intimidate them into changing their benefits system it should be trying to get into a position where noone is reliant on it.

the old fashioned thing of 'bringing the country to a standstill' is bollocks. who wants that to happen?

With respect, I think you're missing the point. It's not about "out-muscling", it's about display. It's about saying "we're here, and this is what we can do if we need to. Now negotiate". It's all about (at least if you're operating within our current "democracy") negotiation and compromise, not about beating the government over the head or about getting beaten over the head by the apparatus of the state.

 

[audiotech]

Work camps in 1979 eh?

Yep, circa 1977.

 

[butchersapron]

Me, I'd "suggest" not aiming for the sky until you've secured your home turf. Local "interest groups" basing their actions and demands on local conditions. What pertains re: unemployment in Tyneside may not be the same as in Merseyside, Truro or the South Coast. Deal with local issues, perhaps federate with other groups nationally, but don't get bogged down in "sticking it to the government" until you've put your message across locally. Give your local community reasons to trust and or respect you for working with your community for everyone's good, and some of them will stick with you when you push your message nationally, whether they're unemployed themselves, or not.
Just trying to develop a national movement can't really work at present, because there are too many interested parties waiting to jump on any bandwagon that might bolster their membership.

Many of the successes of the NUWM in the 30s came because rates were administered locally - enough local pressure could force the rate up for that area. They've learnt from that. But you're right in the above -i think there's lessons there for anyone pinning hopes on 'right to work' marches or other national type campaigns right now. After all, there's goiung to be years of this yet.

 

[butchersapron]

Yep, circa 1977.

And what was the nature of these work camps? Are you sure you're not about 40 years out?

 

[audiotech]

I'm not saying "exclude them", I'm saying "don't allow them to take control of a movement that belongs to the whole community".
Bit of a difference.

A real 'movement' that 'belongs to the whole community' is unlikely to be taken control of by some small sect now is it?

The reality is they may set up a campaign, but people can choose not to join it.

 

[Random]

Unemployment benefit is ran by the unions in scandanavian countries i think.

It is in Sweden, but people are only entitled to it if they subscribe to the union scheme (A-Kassa) and pay A Kassa fees (usually around 20 pounds a month) for at least a year. The latest centre-right government has raised the fees a lot, causing many thousands to leave the schemes.

 

[audiotech]

And what was the nature of these work camps? Are you sure you're not about 40 years out?

The nature of the work camp was like most of these things, to demonstrate to the public that discipline and order would sort such 'idlers' out.

I first came accross this geezer in 1977 - he had attended 'right to work' events, so it's probably about thirty five years ago when he was at this camp. He did escape though.