Undercover British Forces Shoot Iraqi Security.

[vimto]

said on the itv news that none were seriously hurt

Unless the poor fellow didn't have a flame retardent suit on that is.

Lets not forget that there are reports of four Iraqi demonstrators being killed in this incident.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

I'd take the seriously hurt thing with a pinch of salt, definitions of serriously hurt are flexible, if he's going to live through it with minimal scaring then it's probably classed as not serrious.

 

[TeeJay]

This story in the Times has a lot more information than any other I have seen so far:

'Prison breakout was our last resort'

One military source said: “We believed we had no other option.” He said that the reason for the operation was “the safety of our two soldiers, which was our priority from the outset. The ferocity of the earlier clashes showed how determined some local groups were to get their hands on these two men.” Senior officers are sure the mob was being orchestrated by insurgent leaders in Basra who were demanding the release of three influential figures from their militia. Basra’s police chief is said to have claimed that his own force has been infiltrated by militiamen.

...undercover operations by special forces ... in recent days have been intensifying their hunt for local terrorist leaders. A British commander, Brigadier John Lorimer, of the 12th Mechanised Brigade, had given warning that if local police were prevented from “bringing criminals to justice” then the Army would do so. Special forces are understood to have been targeting a number of well-known figures in the city. Two of this undercover team were in an unmarked car, reportedly wearing Arab robes and headdress to cover their own clothes as they headed out on their undisclosed operation.

 

[Bigdavalad]

Special as in special needs perhaps. They left just one corpse behind and the Badr cops caught them; I smell an amateur night cock up.

What were a couple of unsupported poorly armed white guys with towels wrapped round their heads doing driving round Basra? Ones wearing army boots and dessert camoflage trousers which does not suggest he was going to be walking about much. My guess is survellance at a distance and putting a rifle mike on somebody. Signals did it all the time in Belfast and got killed occasionally for their trouble.

They probably wouldn't have lived till morning by the sound of it. Unusual they went and got them. The British military generally isn't so caring.

I am Royal Signals mate, trust me - that is not what the regular Royal Signals soldiers in Iraq do. The ones who got killed in Belfast (Cpls Howes and Wood) were two technicians from the Forward Repair Team of 39 Brigade, based at Thiepval Barracks, Lisburn. They were out on a repair job, weren't briefed about the funeral and got lost when they couldn't use their normal route to wherever they were going. Surveillance is not part of normal Royal Signals work (I've worked in NI to, it's not a normal job for R Sigs over there either).

 

[laptop]

I am Royal Signals mate, trust me - that is not what the regular Royal Signals soldiers in Iraq do.

On the other hand, Signals has often been used as a cover for spookdom. I know this from the career of the late Colonel Hugh Anthony Johnstone, a.k.a. "Colonel B" in the Aubrey-Berry-Campbell Official Secrets trial. His attachment to Signals in Cyprus was a cover for GCHQ there.

And I wonder about my late father, too... his refusal to discuss what he was doing with Signals in Burma may have been his generation's reticence or his own wish to forget an extremely nasty war. But after he died we discovered he'd had a place in a nuclear bunker...

 

[likesfish]

because the police force were about too or be forced to hand them over to a mob
this is all kicking off because one of the "madhi army" Lts got nicked.
bare in mind the basra police force "lost" or sold two new cop cars the week they were delivered . they have two modes ineffectual due to tribal or politcal affilations or murderous thats it

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Leaving aside the exact identity of these guys (and what they were actually doing, something we may never know now they've been sprung) what a joke this makes of 'Iraqi sovereignty'. It's about as real as the 'autonomy' of Palestinian police from the Israelis. When Palestinian Authority police do things their masters disapprove of the Israelis just dismantle their police stations with tanks. When the Iraqis dare do anything that upsets their real masters the Brits just...dismantle their police stations with tanks. Spin it how they like Blair et al can't hide from ordinary Iraqis the fact that their new 'democracy' is a thin veneer for occupation.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Spin it how they like Blair et al can't hide from ordinary Iraqis the fact that their new 'democracy' is a thin veneer for occupation.

Yeah, who exactly is in charge in Iraq now?.

Hopefully stuff like this will speed up an end to the occupation....

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Be nice to think so Sleaterkinney wouldn't it.

Amazing listening to the radio on the way to work this morning. A jail break from legal custody becomes a rescue when it's carried out by the British Army.

 

[Pickman's model]

what made me laugh is the fucking ineptness of the fucking thing - 150 prisoners escaped, it seems. the pisspoor relations between the british troops & the iraqi cops will now be non-existent!

1-0 to the resistance, i suspect.

 

[Pickman's model]

On the other hand, Signals has often been used as a cover for spookdom. I know this from the career of the late Colonel Hugh Anthony Johnstone, a.k.a. "Colonel B" in the Aubrey-Berry-Campbell Official Secrets trial. His attachment to Signals in Cyprus was a cover for GCHQ there.

And I wonder about my late father, too... his refusal to discuss what he was doing with Signals in Burma may have been his generation's reticence or his own wish to forget an extremely nasty war. But after he died we discovered he'd had a place in a nuclear bunker...

it may be that signals is intensely boring, and he didn't want to leave you in tears of ennui.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

1-0 to the resistance, i suspect.

I think you're right. And they must have known how this would look to the Arab world. Which makes you wonder why it was worth it even in their own terms. What exactly were these two characters up to?

 

[sleaterkinney]

Amazing listening to the radio on the way to work this morning. A jail break from legal custody becomes a rescue when it's carried out by the British Army.

That's the spin isn't it, I wonder if the covert operation was carried out with the permission of the locals?. Actually, silly question.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think you're right. And they must have known how this would look to the Arab world. Which makes you wonder why it was worth it even in their own terms. What exactly were these two characters up to?

i very much doubt they were two corporals from the signals regiment, lost nr a funeral - they've done that one, in't it.

fucking sas or from that wanky new regiment, i reckon. i hope they think it was worth it when they realise the true cost of their arsery.

 

[Barking_Mad]

I notice on two BBC reports this morning that no mention of the jail break was made. Oddly Tim Collins on BBC Breakfast said one mistake was the breaking up of the old police force where as John Reid said that the force had to be dismantled and its replacement was on a whole a good success.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

The spinning is just beginning on this one. I guess they'll say, should they have to admit they sprung them, that under laws inherited by the new regime and drawn up by the coalition, the Iraqi government doesn't have the right to try coalition troops and in fact has to hand them over no matter what they've done. Which of course says more about the severly curtailed 'sovereignty' of the new regime.

 

[james_walsh]

I wish the british sate was as robust at defending the rest of its 'citizens' when held kidnapped by dodgy gangs specially in saudi arabia.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

I wish the british sate was as robust at defending the rest of its 'citizens' when held kidnapped by dodgy gangs specially in saudi arabia.

Don't know about that but it would have been fun seeing them storm into Guantanamo to release British Muslims held captive by the Yanks.

 

[Brainaddict]

I can't believe how clumsy this jail-break was Was there really no option but to destroy the building with fucking tanks? Even assuming they had good reason to get the men out, isn't this the kind of thing the SAS would be able to do - without, say, releasing 150 prisoners at the same time? The whole thing stinks of stupidity and ineptness.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Inept indeed. They could learn a thing or two from the Volunteers who organised the Mountjoy jail break as immortalised in the Helicopter Song:
"Up like a bird and high over the city
'Three men are missing' I heard the warder cry"

 

[Brainaddict]

If this story is saying what I think it's saying:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4262976.stm

then the the soldiers weren't even in the prison that they destroyed! Nice one guys

 

[bolshiebhoy]

What gall these people have. John Reid says:

What we do know is that under the law they should have been handed back to the British forces themselves. That is the law which enshrines our presence there.

Aye a law written by yourselves and forced on the new regime. So Reid no matter what your guys do, shoot up and kill Iraqi police checkpoints, you have the right to then smash up Iraqi police stations to 'rescue' them from Iraqi justice. 'Enshrine' isn't the word I'd use to describe this relatrionship.

 

[Barking_Mad]

I thought they said they didnt attempt to break into a jail?

UK admits smashing jail wall in rescue bid

The British Defence Ministry has admitted troops used an armoured vehicle to smash down a prison wall in a bid to free two undercover soldiers in southern Iraq overnight.

A ministry spokesman in London says the prison wall in Basra was breached without shots being fired, but the two soldiers were not found inside the jail.

The spokesman says the soldiers had instead been taken to a house in the town, from which they were later released.

"A Warrior (armoured vehicle) was sent through the perimeter wall of the jail (in Basra)," the spokesman said.

"No shots were fired."

The two undercover soldiers had been seized after a day of rioting sparked, according to police and local officials, when the soldiers fired on an Iraqi police patrol.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Another way of describing events is that fearing the British army would rescue two men who had just shot Iraqi police officers the Basra authorities moved the men to a safer location in order to prevent a cover up. And who would blame them when these soldiers' commander, rather than promising they would be dealt with if it turns out they were trigger happy, is praising them for their fortitude!

Oh no this sort of thing only happens in American controlled areas. The British army has years of solid policing experience from Northern Ireland blah blah blah.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Another way of describing events is that fearing the British army would rescue two men who had just shot Iraqi police officers the Basra authorities moved the men to a safer location in order to prevent a cover up. And who would blame them when these soldiers' commander, rather than promising they would be dealt with if it turns out they were trigger happy, is praising them for their fortitude!

Oh no this sort of thing only happens in American controlled areas. The British army has years of solid policing experience from Northern Ireland blah blah blah.

You belive that? That they were moved to prevent a coverup or the local milita getting hold of them.

The 150 escapees thing seems to be rubbish by the way, looks like one bloke being interviewed said it and then every news source carried the story. Sort of like the witnesses at stockwell.

 

[MikeMcc]

Another way of describing events is that fearing the British army would rescue two men who had just shot Iraqi police officers the Basra authorities moved the men to a safer location in order to prevent a cover up. And who would blame them when these soldiers' commander, rather than promising they would be dealt with if it turns out they were trigger happy, is praising them for their fortitude!

Oh no this sort of thing only happens in American controlled areas. The British army has years of solid policing experience from Northern Ireland blah blah blah.

Crap! - More like the Brits capture two leaders that had been formenting trouble in the area. The Police, many of whom support the Mahdi Army capture two men and move to hold them to ransom. They stage negotiations and agree to release the men. The AFVs arrive to collect the men but are ambushed by a crowd (who just happen to be there, along with the news crews ). The next force turn up and rescue the men involved.

If the ambushed Warriors were there to 'storm the place', then why didn't the embussed infantry get out to help - unless there weren't any in there to start with? Seems like a pretty pathetic 'rescue attempt by force' - two vehicles, each with a three man crew.

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=3554206&postcount=64

I think you'll also find that the stories about 150 escapees are rather hyped up as well and are being retracted. We all know how good 'eye witness accounts' are - remember Mr Menezes, the man who was supposedly wearing a heavy jacket and hurdled the ticket barriers?

 

[FifthFromFront]

The main fuck up I can see is the original shooting of the police officer. There should definitely be an investigation (proper one not a cover up) but I reckon there's little chance of that. After that it seems the British acted pretty well. I was amazed that the warrior IFV that was on fire didn't just drive over the crowd, lets face it the British police would have done it as they proved at J18 when there was nothing like the danger. So those squaddies in the IFV did prety well if you ask me (it seems the shots that killed 4 were fired by others who came to their (the Warrior crew) rescue.

As for smashing down the wall in the jail break, well I'd hope if I was in prison that my mates would come to help me like that! (A plan forms- must hire tanks for next demo). All the politicians putting spin on it though should be given a good kicking, why not just admit "yeah we thought fuck it lets get our troops back, who gives a shit about the law etc" why spin it?

FFF

 

[bolshiebhoy]

I believe the MOD account of these events just as much as I do the Met's take on the death of Menezes.

 

[FifthFromFront]

If the ambushed Warriors were there to 'storm the place', then why didn't the embussed infantry get out to help - unless there weren't any in there to start with? Seems like a pretty pathetic 'rescue attempt by force' - two vehicles, each with a three man crew.

Thats what confused me. I don't get why if the 2 men captured did put out a distress call (which you'd have to assume they did) the British Quick Reaction Force in the area didn't seem to include infantry! Armoured vehicles in Urban environment without infantry support are very very vulnerable.

Also impressive is the continued might of the molotov. I know warriors in the past have survived multiple hits from RPG and T-72 tank fire and yet a few molotovs seems to have disabled one of them and forced crew to abandon it.

All hail the cocktail

FFF

 

[bolshiebhoy]

why spin it?

Because the average Iraqi doesn't see these squaddies as their 'mates'. And having been told they now run their own country they need a little of explanation when the real masters of the situation start smash and grab operations on the civilian administration's buildings!