UN Report Blasts Syria

[mears]

No sanctions dont work .Unless their is a popular uprising going in with tanks to liberate the country risks turning into another iraq .I dont know stick carrott approach diplomacy i guess.

Without sanctions what do you use a stick?

The US military?

 

[Khaleed]

It is very much true that the Syrian government is a dictatorship and their human rights records is pure. I by no means support the regime of Bashir Al-Assad and a huge critic of his rule, however there is one point which must be noted.

At least those in charge are Muslims and we are not faced with a situation like in Israel where you have a racist government ruling of Muslim land.

I would hate to see a situation where Syria would be seen as the problem in this part of the middle-east rather than Israel. We already have an illgeal war in Iraq and any chance of another imperial war would be extremely sad.

 

[mears]

It is very much true that the Syrian government is a dictatorship and their human rights records is pure. I by no means support the regime of Bashir Al-Assad and a huge critic of his rule, however there is one point which must be noted.

At least those in charge are Muslims and we are not faced with a situation like in Israel where you have a racist government ruling of Muslim land.

I would hate to see a situation where Syria would be seen as the problem in this part of the middle-east rather than Israel. We already have an illgeal war in Iraq and any chance of another imperial war would be extremely sad.

Do you care about Palestinains when they face discrimination by states other than Israel?

"Many professions are closed to Palestinians in Lebanon for instance.
Absence of an appropriate legal status, prohibition to occupy dozens of
professions, lack of social security, impossibility to acquire real estate,
restrictions to the freedom of movement and to the freedom of association,
etc.: almost 400,000 Palestinian refugees in Lebanon are constantly and
obviously discriminated against."
http://www.hrea.org/lists/hr-headlines/markup/msg00915.html

Or what about the Palestinians living in Egypt who "face discrimination, poverty and no access to basic services".
http://www.arts.mcgill.ca/mepp/new_prrn/research/papers/el-abed.htm

Why did Kuwait lie and tell the world it was kicking out hundreds of thousands of Palestinians because of their complicity with Saddam after his invasion of Kuwait. Nothing but lies.

Its all nonsense. Why does the Muslim world agonize over the fate of Palestinians in the occupied lands when their own governments treat Palestinians like dirt?

 

[Barking_Mad]

BBC news ticker reports Bush saying that 'Using force against Syria is a last resort'.

 

[Jangla]

BBC news ticker reports Bush saying that 'Using force against Syria is a last resort'.

Which means "it's definitely on the cards and if we can fund it, we'll do it."

 

[mears]

You people are so predictable. You have absolutely no stance on Syria. You have no idea how the west should deal with Mr. Assad. You don't want to dwell on it either.

You just react to the Bush administration and criticize whatever they say or do.

Pathetic.

 

[Barking_Mad]

You people are so predictable. You have absolutely no stance on Syria. You have no idea how the west should deal with Mr. Assad. You don't want to dwell on it either.

You just react to the Bush administration and criticize whatever they say or do.

Pathetic.

What, you'd rather me bang on about something I dont know enough about? Do me a favour Mears. Youve already shown yourself with the Iraq debacle to not bother to understand a complex situation before jumping on the bandwagon.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You people are so predictable. You have absolutely no stance on Syria. You have no idea how the west should deal with Mr. Assad. You don't want to dwell on it either.

You just react to the Bush administration and criticize whatever they say or do.

Pathetic.

Isn't it more accurate to say that you're abusing people on this thread for not agreeing with your laughable contentions?

You see, you're now talking about dealing with Assad, but we both know that any policy will impact not only on Assad, but on the population of the country he rules. Some of us find the inevitability of that, with the concomitant future difficulties and animosities it will generate, a good reason to stop, think, and then do as little as will resolve some of the issues, whereas, as usual, you want to get the big stick out.

To repeat what I've said to you previously, you're ignorant, and worse; you're wilfully ignorant.

 

[Sorry.]

You people are so predictable. You have absolutely no stance on Syria. You have no idea how the west should deal with Mr. Assad. You don't want to dwell on it either.

You just react to the Bush administration and criticize whatever they say or do.

Pathetic.

Precisely the fucking point, the West shouldn't be taking it upon itself to "deal with Syria" at all.

You want to entrench an authoritarian regime in the Middle East? Give them an enemy and a victim complex, which would be precisely the effect of western intervention.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What, you'd rather me bang on about something I dont know enough about? Do me a favour Mears. Youve already shown yourself with the Iraq debacle to not bother to understand a complex situation before jumping on the bandwagon.

I don't believe it's a case of not bothering so much as an inability. Every thread he posts on reflects his adherence to simplistic binary oppositions in the face of complex questions, which (IMHO) implies a cognitive inability rather than choice.

 

[poster342002]

I wonder what would happen in Syria if the secular regime fell?

What happened the last time one of the few secular regimes in the mid-east fell?

 

[Jangla]

You people are so predictable. You have absolutely no stance on Syria. You have no idea how the west should deal with Mr. Assad. You don't want to dwell on it either.

You just react to the Bush administration and criticize whatever they say or do.

Pathetic.

If the administration do the same stupid thing over and over, why the surprise at the default behaviour of criticising it?

 

[Sorry.]

I wonder what would happen in Syria if the secular regime fell?

What happened the last time one of the few secular regimes in the mid-east fell?

"Best keep the secular dictatorship for fear of what form a popular insurrection might take" is a very obnoxious line of reasoning...

 

[poster342002]

"Best keep the secular dictatorship for fear of what form a popular insurrection might take" is a very obnoxious line of reasoning...

Afghanistan,

Iraq,

yeah, maybe this time it would be different and not fall into the hands of religious fundamentalists.

 

[Sorry.]

Afghanistan,

Iraq,

yeah, maybe this time it would be different and not fall into the hands of religious fundamentalists.

Perhaps there's a link between maintaining a secular dictatorship and its eventually dissolution into a Islamist regime

 

[Rob Ray]

What, like maybe I dunno the population seeing western secular governments interfering to maintain an evil dictatorship might give islamic fundamentalists ammunition to say their way was the only alternative?

Nah...

 

[poster342002]

Be that as it may (and I think it's actually true to a point), the fact is that wading in now and toppling those same secualr regimes merely leads to the establishment of another fundamentalist, sexist, reactionary mess.

Does anyone really think that what the world needs is yet another one of those?

 

[vimto]

This is nothing more than certain organisations attempting to secure the Middle Eastern oil fields for those who would wish to control them...nothing new there.

This is fairly simple stuff.

 

[Sorry.]

Be that as it may (and I think it's actually true to a point), the fact is that wading in now and toppling those same secualr regimes merely leads to the establishment of another fundamentalist, sexist, reactionary mess.

Does anyone really think that what the world needs is yet another one of those?

Ah, I think you have misunderstand the nuance of my position.

I do not support any representative of the International community 'wading in' to topple the Assad regime. But I do desire the toppling of the regime by other means (through domestic political pressure of whatever sort)

 

[vimto]

What, like maybe I dunno the population seeing western secular governments interfering to maintain an evil dictatorship might give islamic fundamentalists ammunition to say their way was the only alternative?

Nah...

Well you sound like one of them to me Rob.

Are you one of dem Christians what wants to kill all them non - Christian children sir?

I think we should Know!

 

[vimto]

Some answers please dear sir!

 

[vimto]

Saying that...it's pretty fucking sick when we see these cunts dropping bombs on babies from 30,ooo feet and above on a regular basis.

Hey...but that's the Yankee way though innit...

Is that allowed?

 

[vimto]

 

[Khaleed]

I am sorry for not replying sooner to the post from the Republican. I would give a detailed reply now but the others that posted before me have already said what I feel, so thanks vimto and the others. good people

 

[mears]

I am sorry for not replying sooner to the post from the Republican. I would give a detailed reply now but the others that posted before me have already said what I feel, so thanks vimto and the others. good people

Friend, I don't mean to sound rude but you should not rely on vimto to speak for you.

Playing the victim will not improve the lives of ordinary Muslims. Blaming Israel and America is the way Middle Eastern dictators shift the anger of their people. When you blame America and Israel for everything, you play right into their hands. The Presidents for life, the hereditary autocracies, the joke of a government in Iran or the bloated currupt ruling family in Saudi Arabia.

All these governments want their people to think exactly like you.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Friend, I don't mean to sound rude but you should not rely on vimto to speak for you.

Playing the victim will not improve the lives of ordinary Muslims. Blaming Israel and America is the way Middle Eastern dictators shift the anger of their people. When you blame America and Israel for everything, you play right into their hands. The Presidents for life, the hereditary autocracies, the joke of a government in Iran or the bloated currupt ruling family in Saudi Arabia.

All these governments want their people to think exactly like you.

What, and Mr Bush doesnt want you thinking like him? You really don't have any sense of self critisism or as usual with Americans, irony. And to make it worse you think its your job to re-order the rest of the world in your own ugly American image.

You'd have thought you'd have learnt your lesson via Iraq but it seems you're just doomed to repeat yourself. Worse still you align yourself to a bunch of crackhead Christian fundamentalists who believe they are doing the work of God.

 

[Poi E]

My theory:

Syria has a naughty interfering government says the US. Like many in the Middle East and just like the US, but the US doesn't want any middle eastern countries to form some sort of bulwark against US interference. Pick them off one at a time, Iran for nukes, Syria for being involved in assasinations. The UN has been in the sights of the US for a long time. The undue attention this report is getting at the S.C. is the UN playing good dog and probably gettin drip fed some of the vast $$$ the US owes the UN, and Kofi gets to retire with his reputation intact. Sorry if I'm stating the bleeding obvious.

 

[poster342002]

I do not support any representative of the International community 'wading in' to topple the Assad regime. But I do desire the toppling of the regime by other means (through domestic political pressure of whatever sort)

But that's the problem: political pressure of any sort on these regimes at the moment will only lead to the current far worse alternative; extreme right-wing fundamentalism. It's a bit like accepting that Castro's regime in Cuba isn't very nice, but that the only current realistic outcome were he to go would be the imposition of a rightwing moneterist outfit.

It's a shit state of affairs, I'll agree, but it's the situation we're stuck with right now. Under those circumstances, if it's a choice between secular regimes and ultra-rightwing fundamentalism (and it appears ot be precisiely that choice), I'd choose the secular regimes.

There seem, quite simply, to be no progressive movements in the mid-east at he moment at all. I do not hold the view that some seem to - that in the absence of any progresive movements, the fundamentalists will do instead.

 

[Rob Ray]

Yeah but it's not that choice though, because western armies can't hold power in middle eastern countries. They can take it, but there's not enough resources, money etc to hold it. The more realistic choice would be:

a) Not interfere, with possibility that the embedded dictatorsgip is toppled by even worse fundamentalist outfit.
b) Interfere, win war easily, then sit around definitely watching the whole place disintegrate as the fundamentalists dig in.

FYI you're talking bollocks saying there is no effective alternative in these countries, they just aren't as well publicised as the mad fundie bastards (I wonder why). We've got someone working on this very subject for a feature in Freedom as it happens.

edit: you've got the wrong horse there V, I'm a committed anarchist, far as I'm concerned God is about as likely as there being gold at the end of the rainbow .

 

[Poi E]

FYI you're talking bollocks saying there is no effective alternative in these countries, they just aren't as well publicised as the mad fundie bastards (I wonder why). We've got someone working on this very subject for a feature in Freedom as it happens.

There must be, with strong strains of secular pan-Arabism and socialism being a feature of previous political organisation in many parts of the region.