UKs imported rape slaves - hostage to prejudices of the right and liberals alike?

[belboid]

That bit I disin't think was accurate, either. I don't think that's the reason for the liberal left's failings on this issue. I think it often boils down to a weird type of Political Correctness of sorts.

You can use the phrase 'liberal left' all you like, and I'm sure it makes you feel big and clever. However, unless you come up with some alternatives, why should anyone think anything other than you are a tosser who uses excuses to avoid any kind of activity yourself?

 

[Isambard]

Yes, I think there are problems that people who work in the sex industry aren't listened to enough and there are people working in it to a greater or lesser extent out of choice.

 

[poster342002]

Yes, I think there are problems that people who work in the sex industry aren't listened to enough and there are people working in it to a greater or lesser extent out of choice.

The ones listened too even less are the ones who are or were - literally - enslaved by it (occasionally by close associates or even relatives).

 

[Isambard]

So your ideas for how to tackle the issue of the (I'll wager, minority) of (women) sex workers who are enslaved are?

 

[tbaldwin]

To be honest this is one of the clearest examples of the case for no borders.
.

So people being forced into prostitution would end if we scrapped immigration controls??????????

The truth is Imperialists first backed slavery and then when that was no longer possible. They moved on to support economic slavery and mass migration of skilled people from poorer countries.
Not suprsingly other people then wanted to leave those poor countries and not suprisingly other people exploited that desire.
Which is a major reason that the sex trade has so many eastern europeans etc.
And then Racist/Liberals (C) come out with shit like this..

 

[kea]

Well the Poppy Project arranges the Reclaim the Night type campaigns which highlight certain issues regarding prostitution.

um, the Reclaim the Night events aren't Poppy's main remit, their main remit is running rescue and rehabilitation services for women who've been trafficked into this country for sex - working with the women to help those who are able to escape to start a new life (including housing, counselling and training).

The main problem though is that they alwaya ignore the voices of people who work in the sex industry and refuse to accept a significant amount of sex workers are in the profession having made an informed choice.

i think it's important to distinguish very clearly between forced prostitution and prostitution. these two issues are seperate imo and are being confused and blurred in this thread (not just addressed to you btw, SGT).
Poppy works on forced prostitution. yes your criticism of the Reclaim the Night events is probably valid, re: consultation and working with sex workers, however it's important to emphasise that this isn't Poppy's main area of work at all.
Poppy's ambition IS to work with women in prostitution, as well as those in FORCED prostitution, in the future, and their chief executive has been invited to join various task forces looking at this. however i think that a debate needs to happen before this kind of working leads to any kind of wider project targetting non-forced prostitution - and i'm sure that, if/when that day comes, that debate will happen. and i am sure that the debate will include those people currently left out of Poppy's approach.

 

[Isambard]

So people being forced into prostitution would end if we scrapped immigration controls??????????

Wondered when you'd turn up.

The point that is being clearly made is that it is the existence of "immigration control" that is a lever used against those in forced prostitution as I outlined above.

A lot of the east Europeans who work as prostitutes doen't really "want" to but they are often denied the chance of regular work, due to "border controls".


Thanks for posting Kea. Some good points.

 

[shortygoldtooth]

um, the Reclaim the Night events aren't Poppy's main remit, their main remit is running rescue and rehabilitation services for women who've been trafficked into this country for sex - working with the women to help those who are able to escape to start a new life (including housing, counselling and training).




i think it's important to distinguish very clearly between forced prostitution and prostitution. these two issues are seperate imo and are being confused and blurred in this thread (not just addressed to you btw, SGT).
Poppy works on forced prostitution. yes your criticism of the Reclaim the Night events is probably valid, re: consultation and working with sex workers, however it's important to emphasise that this isn't Poppy's main area of work at all.
Poppy's ambition IS to work with women in prostitution, as well as those in FORCED prostitution, in the future, and their chief executive has been invited to join various task forces looking at this. however i think that a debate needs to happen before this kind of working leads to any kind of wider project targetting non-forced prostitution - and i'm sure that, if/when that day comes, that debate will happen. and i am sure that the debate will include those people currently left out of Poppy's approach.

Thanks for the reminder, I recognise that Poppy's approach does contain many other things.

I too think that the issue of forced prostitution and prostitution need to be seperated in any debate in order to make meaningful progress. Is there any source you would recommend giving meaningful information about the numbers of people found to work as forced prostitutes?

 

[kea]

Is there any source you would recommend giving meaningful information about the numbers of people found to work as forced prostitutes?

Poppy is the only source i can think of tbh. i'm actually seeing some Poppy people tonight so i can ask them if they know of any others (home office probably?) and i will let you know

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Thanks for all the posts so far



Kea says there has been a fair bit in the media about human rape traffic. When I say the silence is deafening I mean the lack of campaigns. An exception is Amnesty. The press stories tend to focus on the fact that this is "illegal" immigration rather than the disgusting human rights abuses taking place in this country right now.


Someone described this thread as "shitstirring" - I would prefer to call it "vigourous debate" or possibly lancing the boil.

In the header I deliberately not mention "the left" (I knew I'd be in even bigger trouble). It is actually more a liberal value that is instinctively in favour of legalised brothels (as am I).

As with the drugs issue, I think people who are instinctively liberal can sometimes be quick to turn a blind eye to the social problems inherent in prostitution.

I agree this is a good case for no borders, it is also a good case for liscenced brothels and unionized sex workers (though this is something to be "allowed" rather than encouraged, certainly not advertised)

 

[kea]

I mean the lack of campaigns.

you mean by charities?
amnesty publicise it cos it's a human rights issue, do you mean by charities working in human rights, or by charities like Poppy which actively work with these women? it's still not clear to me exactly what you're calling for.

 

[shortygoldtooth]

Poppy is the only source i can think of tbh. i'm actually seeing some Poppy people tonight so i can ask them if they know of any others (home office probably?) and i will let you know

I am a bit of a cynic about Poppy, I think it is in the organisations interest to exagerate the numbers in order to get more funding. I don't mean to diss them, but they recently highlighted a "massive project" they had done (i'm paraphrasing here forgive me) on the extent of prostitution and all they had done was plunder PunterNet for all the information.

That said I will as ever try with both hands to have an open mind.

 

[Pigeon]

So people being forced into prostitution would end if we scrapped immigration controls??????????

Possibly wouldn't "end". But, in the absence of a disenfranchised underclass of people with no right to work legally and no recourse to public funds, there would clearly be a smaller pool of vulnerable women open to exploitation in that way.

]

Why have you taken to. Punctuating your sentences in that bizarre way?

Not suprsingly other people then wanted to leave those poor countries and not suprisingly other people exploited that desire.
Which is a major reason that the sex trade has so many eastern europeans etc.
And then Racist/Liberals (C) come out with shit like this..

I'm presuming you've come up with a workable solution to this exploitation then...?

 

[kea]

they recently highlighted a "massive project" they had done (i'm paraphrasing here forgive me) on the extent of prostitution and all they had done was plunder PunterNet for all the information.

you mean the report on off-street prostitution? that did use punternet as one of the sources but it was far from the only one. have you read the actual report?

edit: re: the funding, let me put it like this - the (relatively) small amount of funding it gets is sufficient to pay for (i believe) 24 bedspaces, each of which is occupied for a year. that's 24 women a year. there is no shortage of demand for these places. hence, it does seem to me that the need is out there. obviously the figures in reports like the off-street prostitution report are a different kettle of fish, but Poppy gets nowhere near the level of funding to target those kinds of numbers anyway.
i'm open to criticisms though and interested to hear your views!

 

[shortygoldtooth]

you mean the report on off-street prostitution? that did use punternet as one of the sources but it was far from the only one. have you read the actual report?

edit: re: the funding, let me put it like this - the small amount of funding it gets is sufficient to pay for (i believe) 24 bedspaces each of which is occupied for a year. there is no shortage of demand for these places. hence, using that as an assessment of potential over-statement, it does seem to me that the need is out there.
i'm open to criticisms though and interested to hear your views!

Did they credit PunterNet?

I just had a look at the Poppy site again for the first time in months. More food for thought.

I think what erks somewhat is the bedrock belief that no person would make an informed choice to work in the sex industry. The voices of my long lost friends who did earn their cash as sex workers echo in my ears with their annoyance at this attitude!

That said, the work that they are doing supporting vunerable women is no doubt valuable.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

it's still not clear to me exactly what you're calling for.

Sorry.

More attention on the human rights issue in the mainstream / establishment press, rather than the migration issue.

These must be by far the worst ongoing human rights abuses in this country, it is a worsening problem. I dont think the scandal is taken seriously enough by establishment politicians.

Also more money for the campaigns. I agree there is great work being done. But for example, we have woefully small amounts of safe houses especially for the victims (just one, in London I think)

 

[kea]

@ SGT -
i don't know, i was under the impression they did i'm sure it was explicitly mentioned, cos i don't think i knew of its existence til then!!
i can check if you want.

re: "I think what erks somewhat is the bedrock belief that no person would make an informed choice to work in the sex industry" -
it would be disingenuous of me to pretend that Poppy (and its parent charity, Eaves) doesn't come from a certain ideological/political perspective; it does. my personal view is that in this regard it's a bit too stuck in the 2ndwave, and that we 3rdwavers can contribute by provoking a discussion of some of these assumptions. it's certainly something i'd like to see being debated within the organisation, and i hope that can happen.

 

[redsquirrel]

Sorry.

More attention on the human rights issue in the mainstream / establishment press, rather than the migration issue.These must be by far the worst ongoing human rights abuses in this country, it is a worsening problem. I dont think the scandal is taken seriously enough by establishment politicians..

But this simply isn't true as Kea has said the issue has been in the news quite a bit recently. Also I can think of two recent fictional works based on this issue of the top of my head (channel 4's drama with (I think) John Simm and Lylja 4 ever(sp?) Lukas Moodysson's movie).

 

[kea]

Also more money for the campaigns. I agree there is great work being done. But for example, we have woefully small amounts of safe houses especially for the victims (just one, in London I think)

you mean more money for the efforts to directly help these women, then? i wouldn't call that campaigning, it's confusing. sorry to be picky.

as i said above, there's one project, Poppy, which works on this in the whole country, and they have (i think) 24 bed spaces, each space being allocated for a year. so that's 24 women a year - a pitifully small number
Poppy is in talks with the home office to secure a funding expansion, however, which would enable the project to increase the volume of its work.

incidentally, Poppy is shortlisted in the Third Sector awards (for charities) tonight - fingers crossed!

 

[Pigeon]

What about the ones who are UK citizens and are forced into the illegal sex/rape trade?

This issue is not just pinned to the immigration controlls issue: it's a general issue of gross exploitation which the left seems amazingly silent about unless they can link it to the asylum/immigration issue.

It isn't just pinned to the immigration control issue, granted. But nevertheless, there are relatively few women who aren't subject to immigration control who are left in conditions of utter destitution in the same way as many migrant women.

 

[poster342002]

there are relatively few women who aren't subject to immigration control who are left in conditions of utter destitution in the same way as many migrant women.

There are still far too many and their oppression goes far too unnoticed.

 

[kea]

do you have any figures on that, poster? i'd be interested to know.

 

[poster342002]

Well, for example, I understand (can't remember where from) that a lot of homeless people are homeless because of severe sexual abuse (which can include forced prostitution) at the hands of relatives. They fall between all the cracks of what's left of the welfare state.

 

[kea]

i think the thing is that, while i'm not downplaying in any way the seriousness of those situations, they are very very hard to pinpoint as they happen on an individual scale (iyswim). whereas sex trafficking is an ORGANISED crime, hence it's clear and targettable (though very dangerous - the people who work on Poppy put themselves at great risk ). that doesn't mean efforts shouldn't be made to address the problem, but it does mean that it's a very different kettle of fish in terms of HOW you go about tackling it and reaching out to the people affected by it.
i think that to say that Poppy should cover this work as well would be to ask it to do something very different to what it does now. it might take that on successfully, but it might not. it's the kind of work which other sexual abuse services are probably in a better position to attempt to target/highlight. do you see what i mean? not sure if i'm making much sense tbh

 

[poster342002]

i think the thing is that, while i'm not downplaying in any way the seriousness of those situations, they are very very hard to pinpoint as they happen on an individual scale (iyswim). whereas sex trafficking is an ORGANISED crime,

Internal (within one country) forced prostitution can also be organised crime. There was a case in France recently where a gang within a village were forcibly prostituting their own children to each other. I doubt the victims' plight would have stopped at childhhod had the perpetrators not been caught. If it can hapen in France, there's no real reason why it couldn't happen here.

 

[kea]

yes, it can be, and i don't see why Poppy shouldn't expand to cover that (other than government bureaucracy but that's a whole other (long) story!). however, that's a bit different from the case in your previous post of someone being abused by their relatives. in that kind of 'individual' situation, it would be very hard for a service like Poppy to adapt what it does to reach those people, as it's fundamentally a different situation (imo).
that's not to say other services shouldn't be pushed to focus on this, though. if it's happening out there (stats would be interesting but i can understand why they'd be hard to obtain with accuracy!) then it needs addressing, no question.

 

[poster342002]

however, that's a bit different from the case in your previous post of someone being abused by their relatives. in that kind of 'individual' situation, it would be very hard for a service like Poppy to adapt what it does to reach those people, as it's fundamentally a different situation (imo).

I think there's probably quite a bit of overlap between such cases. People can be abused and prostituted by their relatives - who are running a forced-prostition gang.

 

[ZWord]

There are still far too many and their oppression goes far too unnoticed.

They do exist for certain, but my guess is the problem is not that they're unnoticed but it's almost impossible to get a conviction against the people who are pimping them. Certainly if it became policy that they wouldn't be deported, it would help.

 

[kea]

I think there's probably quite a bit of overlap between such cases. People can be abused and prostituted by their relatives - who are running a forced-prostition gang.

sorry, but then you're still talking about 'organised' forced prostitution rather than 'individual' forced prostitution.

 

[poster342002]

sorry, but then you're still talking about 'organised' forced prostitution rather than 'individual' forced prostitution.

What I mean is that it's probably sometimes a bit of both.