Ukraine: Workers Occupy Factory - Demanding Workers Control

[DownwardDog]

I'm not knocking the occupation, just stating a fact, what they are demanding (nationalisation) will not lead to workers' control.

Seeing as the place is bankrupt and they (presumably) don't have much money what other choice do they have to keep the lights on? I assume they also want state control as then liability for the unpaid wages will transfer to somebody with some money.

 

[Idaho]

Capitalism is safe just as long as Anarchists and Communists can be relied upon to fight each other and to re-live their old battles on bulletin boards.

Indeed. Capitalism is lucky in it's enemies.

 

[dennisr]

Capitalism is safe just as long as Anarchists and Communists can be relied upon to fight each other and to re-live their old battles on bulletin boards.

a fair point well illustrated by our fellow posters

 

[Spion]

a fair point well illustrated by our fellow posters

The SP has pictures of Marx and Engels at the top of its home page. The vast bulk of their work was polemic against others on the left.

The debates never stop, and there's no reason why they should, as long as we can determine where we can work together practically. Only fools and wannabe Stalins would have it any other way.

 

[butchersapron]

The vast bulk of marx and Engels' work was polemic against others on the left? Are you mental or something?

 

[In Bloom]

Seeing as the place is bankrupt and they (presumably) don't have much money what other choice do they have to keep the lights on? I assume they also want state control as then liability for the unpaid wages will transfer to somebody with some money.

Absolutely, it's pretty much their only option, barring something really amazing happening, I just don't think it's accurate to describe such a situation as "workers control".

 

[frogwoman]

still a pretty good development though isn't it? the fact that they want it nationalised doesn't mean that they are all reactionary or something. it's a pretty optimistic step however you look at it.

 

[Spion]

The vast bulk of marx and Engels' work was polemic against others on the left? Are you mental or something?

OK, what percentage, O Sane One?

 

[frogwoman]

Marx certainly spent a bit of time criticising what we could possibly describe today as fascism, and the amount of time such people spent on attacking parasitic finance capitalists, usurers and the "banking system" rather than capitalism and the relationships of production itself ... im not sure whether that counts as "polemics against the left" tho

i have to say that i have not studied much of marx's writings in great detail tho, i've read the communist manifesto and that's about it, so i'm basically takeing it from what john weiss and others have said on the subject.

 

[Spion]

i have to say that i have not studied much of marx's writings in great detail tho, i've read the communist manifesto and that's about it

A good example.

A good chunk of which was devoted to criticising:

"1. Reactionary Socialism
A. Feudal Socialism
B. Petty-Bourgeois Socialism
C. German or “True” Socialism

2. Conservative or Bourgeois Socialism

3. Critical-Utopian Socialism and Communism"

Not bad for a day's work.

 

[frogwoman]

it looks like that but i'd have to look at how he was defining this stuff though. marx was writing at the same time as the forerunners to modern fascism and proto-fascism, many of whom claimed to be socialist.

 

[butchersapron]

OK, what percentage, O Sane One?

It's your argument prof - you tell me. What's your estimate?

 

[Spion]

it looks like that but i'd have to look at how he was defining this stuff though. marx was writing at the same time as the forerunners to modern fascism and proto-fascism, many of whom claimed to be socialist.

Oh, crikey, yes, different times. Marx and Engles were living in an age when some nations (Germany for one) still had to become nation states and that was a task they (rightly) saw as part of the working class's tasks at the time. A far cry from just a few decades later

 

[Spion]

It's your argument prof - you tell me. What's your estimate?

Plenty

Anyway, why deny debate is important? It seems a bit silly for an arsey bastard like you to do that

 

[butchersapron]

He retreats from his silly claim.

 

[Spion]

The point stands, whether it's 25% or 60% of their writings. They spent large amounts of time criticising other currents of thought on the left.

 

[butchersapron]

Not it it's 1% if doesn't. Or 5%.

Let's all make stupid claims then say no don't bother checking them, it's all the same.

 

[Spion]

Not it it's 1% if doesn't. Or 5%.[/I]

Now that IS a stupid claim.

 

[butchersapron]

It might be - but you've been so cravenly vague that we can't tell what you mean.

 

[Spion]

And a very stupid argument, arguing over the precise percentage of polemic in M&E's work, tho probably self-serving. They did a lot of it. Now, why would you want to delegitimise the idea of criticism I wonder?

 

[butchersapron]

By criticisng your unsupportable claims i'm engaging in and supporting the idea of criticism. By saying that you can post any old shit then run away from defending it you're attacking criticism.

Oh yes but i'm attacking your idiocy as part of some conspiracy. Cui bono? ooh..

 

[Spion]

It might be - but you've been so cravenly vague that we can't tell what you mean.

And you call me a mental case? A normal human being would ask for clarification. Butchers focusses on a detail and goes for the 'win'.

 

[butchersapron]

And you call me a mental case? A normal human being would ask for clarification. Butchers focusses on a detail and goes for the 'win'.

I did ask for 'clarification' - you avoided it.

edit: Actually, no you didn't, you chose to re-emphasise it and challenge my doubts.

 

[danny la rouge]

A good example.

Can you think of another?

A book, rather than a letter.

 

[Spion]

I did ask for 'clarification' - you avoided it.

I provided an example from the manifesto.

Here, pull some out for youself http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/date/index.htm

 

[Spion]

Can you think of another?

The Conflict between Marx & Bakunin

 

[butchersapron]

I provided an example from the manifesto.

Here, pull some out for youself http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/date/index.htm

An example from one tiny work is not adequate proof of the 'vast bulk' of work across mllions and millions of words being polemcial attacks on other groups or individuals. Sorry.

Diod anyone claim that marx and engels never attacked anyone ever?

 

[danny la rouge]

The Conflict between Marx & Bakunin

Yes, well-known conflict. But not a major work.

 

[butchersapron]

Yes, well-known conflict. But not a major work.

Not even a work.

 

[Spion]

The Poverty of Philosophy
Answer to the Philosophy of Poverty by M. Proudhon