nino_savatte said:
You say that you "I have absolutely no problem with individual European countries". So what's the problem with a group of European countries? Like it or not, we live in Europe and not off the eastern seaboard of the USA. I don't think the EU is perfect but, at the same time, I don't think it's as bad as UKIP pretends.
I am very, very happy to be living in Europe, I'd have left otherwise, and you can believe that or not. Suit yourself. I am, however, very unhappy about being ruled by EU institutions which sideline democracy, and with it the democracy that has made Britain the largely peaceful country that it was. Can you see the difference?
I accept that you were not happy with what that system gave the people, but do you really think that rule by politicians and bureacrats, amongst them past and present British incumbents like Mandelson, Kinnock, Leon Brittan, and Chris Patten, and Thatcher, Major, etc, and via the EU will improve our situation? The employment rights you are so pleased with can be taken away, and not being a democracy, the people's only recourse will be through direct action. And how the fuck did the USA get into this?
Well, how about you tell me how the Commonwealth came into being? If I stop "going on about Empire" you have to stop crapping on about Europe. Deal? Forget it, you UKIPers are single-mindedly obsessed with Europe and foreigners.
I'm sure you don't need me to tell you how the Commonwealth came into being; it's mostly made up of former British colonies and membership is entirely voluntary. So what? Do you have a problem with Britain forming trade agreements with Commonwealth members? And those "
foreigners" now have as much influence over what happens in Britain under the QMV system as anyone we could elect now.
To hear Farage and his band of nutters talk, anyone would think that Europe was evil. Though there never appears to be any distinction made between Europe and the EU (or even the EC..which is much worse as it is unelected).
I wish Farage was a better leader, and UKIP was a better party. Sadly imo the alternatives are much worse, and the party frequently makes the distinction between the EU and Europe, something
you frequently fail to do yourself, so please don't lecture others on this point. And the EC
is one of the most powerful institutions in the EU.
So how is UKIP democratic? Tell me how UKIP MEPs serve their constituents in Strasbourg? They don't. Furthermore, how has the EU "amassed real police state powers"? Aren't you being overdramatic? That's a common UKIP tactic: engage in scaremongering.
MEPs
don't serve their constituents because they have so little power. I vote for UKIP because it is the only credible
party I know of that opposes the EU (though there is a very small handful of individuals in the mainstream parties that do too) and they at least are amongst those who do what they can to expose the EU for what it is. And no I'm not being overdramatic. The EU has amassed itself the right to a lot of power over its citizens. And it would all be fine under a benign leadership, but what if it's not in the future? It's not democratic, so what then? No one is scaremongering, we'll leave that to the europhiles, who told the voters that they'd be "
left out in the cold" if they voted "no" to the Common Market, and "
3 million jobs would be lost" if we left.
I'm not projecting anything onto you. As for your points, they tend to orbit the same object: Europe. Indeed, you only have one point: Europe is bad.
Wrong. Europe is fine, the EU is bad for the British people imo. SEE THE DISTINCTION? (It's for the rest of the people in the EU's member states to define their own relationships with it.) We'd only disagree if I engaged in other debates and I respect the views of the members of this forum and see no need to anyway debate the mostly classic arguments anyway.
Maybe not but there are some head-the-balls in UKIP who are. UKIP are also a wee bit sexist too. How many women members does UKIP have?
There are odd people in EVERY party, but I have absolutely no idea how many women are in UKIP. But as a woman, I haven't come up against even the slightest amount of what I'd see as prejudice. I would not support the party anyway if it promoted all women shortlists or any other kind of politically correct doctrines.
That's wrong. Where's your evidence of this?
The restrictions? The right to free speech is more restricted, the right to peaceful protest is more restricted, even the right to send a simple email is subject to the threat of official snoopers, and I don't even want to think about biometric ID cards which are planned all over the EU and beyond. Oh, and our right to trial by jury will gradually disappear when the EU justice system is rolled out, and the government has already taken advantage of it in its treatment of suspected terrorists.
I'll take ECL over Corpus Juris and the ECHR every single time.
If it wasn't for the European Working Time Directive, your cronies in industry would be exploiting workers even more than they do today. Your "democratically elected government" in the 80's crushed the unions and introduced the flexible labour market. People in this country work longer hours for less pay and have fewer public holidays than our European counterparts. Tell me how this aids the all-important productivity?
And they did it because the unions brought the country to its knees with strikes in the 1970s. We were the "
sick man of Europe". I think Thatcher was arrogant and went too far and drove the previously sceptical unions into the arms of the EU. But Thatcherism hasn't exactly been rolled back under the EU privatisation programme has it? And you don't know what would have happened had we not joined the EU. I agree with Littlebabyjesus; the EU is run by capitalists, albeit with just enough to keep the socialists happy. But I don't think
any of them are working in the interests of the people as much as they are working in their own interests.
As for public holidays, what is more important is how many the majority of countries which are outside of the EU take. We have already lost most of our manufacturing base to cheaper marketplaces.
People in rich places like London are. And quite rightly so.
