CyberRose
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Sorry nino, not today mateYou've never had a "touch" and that's clear by your posts.
Even here you can maintain a grip on what you've posted before.
UKIP apparantly have some principles, reject BNP pact
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nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Why? are you having one of your turns? Poor lad, go and lie down in the dark or summat. 
If social democracy & central planning is 'left' and neo-liberalism is 'right', then what is 'far-right' exactly?
Can you find me anyone ese who has labelled UKIP as economically 'far right'?
Seems like you just want to use emotive language instead of pin-pointing what *exactly* you object to about their policies.
CyberRose
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Who are you to decide what others see as right or left? FYI I would consider central planning to be far left, and I have no idea about the intricate details of neo-liberalism (and I doubt you do either) to place it on the left-right range.
Do I need to? I consider their economic policies to be far right wing. If you can't tell me why that is not true then I'm afraid I can't see you taking this argument any further
Actually I'd like to turn that round the other way if you'll allow me to. I have explained why I use the terms that I do, and it is done in quite a simplified way. YOU, however, are objecting to the use of a term based on YOUR understanding of it, because YOU do not want emotive language used because of how YOU think it describes UKIP.
As for my views on UKIP and their policies, they are extremely well documented on U75 so if you want to read them simply search for the threads.
I also find it incredibly hypocritical of you to accuse me of skirting round the issue and avoiding discussing UKIP's policies because you have not even bothered to look at UKIP's policies to discuss them here. Nor have you done so in other threads before (otherwise I would know your position).
So in your next post instead of trying to be a clever dick why don't you take your own medicine and go through UKIP's manifesto and tell me where you think it fits on the economic ideological range...?
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Huh? That's an extremely narrow view.
CyberRose
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I would describe it as simplistic, rather than narrow
In very simple (economic) terms, imo (which I'm sure others will disagree with and I will be the first to admit I don't know the technical terms for what I'm describing) extreme left would be anarchism (altho I think I've said before that could also be extreme right
), far left communism (ie total centrally planned), far right would be laissez faire and extreme right would be anarchism again but with corporations taking the place of governments. Then obviously you have a mish-mash making up the centre ground UKIP, economically, are to the right of the Tories, who are right wing economically, so that, imo, would make the far right economically
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
I would describe it as simplistic, rather than narrow
In very simple (economic) terms, imo (which I'm sure others will disagree with and I will be the first to admit I don't know the technical terms for what I'm describing) extreme left would be anarchism (altho I think I've said before that could also be extreme right
UKIP, economically, are to the right of the Tories, who are right wing economically, so that, imo, would make the far right economically
Narrow or simplistic, there is little difference. Central planning is not the sole preserve of the 'far left'.
CyberRose
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Never said it was...
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Most people wouldn't leave out 'left' and 'right'
You:
extreme left = anarchism
far left = communism
centre = mixed
far right = laissez faire
extreme right = anarchism
More normal:
far left = communism & anarchism
left = planned & mixed
centre = mixed
right = free market & mixed
"far right" = zero-state free-market ("anarcho-captalist"?).
I have read the UKIP website. None of the quotes below indicate 'far right' strictly laissez-faire economic policies:
"we will encourage UK manufacturing so that we make things again"
"We will have a grammar school in every town"
"We will ... look seriously at reopening some rail lines that Beeching closed"
"we will bring in fair prices and fair competition for ... farmers"
source: http://www.ukip.org/content/ukip-policies/726-ukip-policies-in-brief
In fact I can't see anything within the UKIP manifestos or websites that advocates what I would regard as radical or extreme laissez-faire economics and in fact I can't see how they could advocate it given all their other policies on the NHS, schools, transport, welfare or giving help to various sections of the economy.
They might be to the right of the current Labour and Conservative parties but they still advocate a mixed economy, which means they are not economically 'extreme right', 'far right' or any equivalent term you care to use.
This is 'in my opinion' of course, just as what you are posting is 'in your opinion'. So no need to get personally abusive about things.
You:
extreme left = anarchism
far left = communism
centre = mixed
far right = laissez faire
extreme right = anarchism
More normal:
far left = communism & anarchism
left = planned & mixed
centre = mixed
right = free market & mixed
"far right" = zero-state free-market ("anarcho-captalist"?).
I have read the UKIP website. None of the quotes below indicate 'far right' strictly laissez-faire economic policies:
"we will encourage UK manufacturing so that we make things again"
"We will have a grammar school in every town"
"We will ... look seriously at reopening some rail lines that Beeching closed"
"we will bring in fair prices and fair competition for ... farmers"
source: http://www.ukip.org/content/ukip-policies/726-ukip-policies-in-brief
In fact I can't see anything within the UKIP manifestos or websites that advocates what I would regard as radical or extreme laissez-faire economics and in fact I can't see how they could advocate it given all their other policies on the NHS, schools, transport, welfare or giving help to various sections of the economy.
They might be to the right of the current Labour and Conservative parties but they still advocate a mixed economy, which means they are not economically 'extreme right', 'far right' or any equivalent term you care to use.
This is 'in my opinion' of course, just as what you are posting is 'in your opinion'. So no need to get personally abusive about things.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
A Flat Rate Tax Policy - where's that come then?
CyberRose
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I'm pretty sure I read that policy in some communist leaflet once?
CyberRose
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I meant a completely centrally planned economy would be far left (ie communism). But again, it's very simplistic and I acknowledge that there are many examples of these types of economy that we wouldn't necessarily label far left or communism (esp in the Arab world, altho perhaps in purely economic terms they would also be considered far left?)
Anyway, you got me, I admit it
float> I would agree with you on this, that was my take on their policies.
With regards to their tax policy, yes I would say that the flat tax is towards the right on the economic scale, but over all their policies don't fit into the Chicago boys style laissez-faire economics which many consider to be on the far right of the economic scale. If you compare UKIP with LPUK for example, there seems to be a gulf of difference on a number of issues.
TomPaine
With regards to their tax policy, yes I would say that the flat tax is towards the right on the economic scale, but over all their policies don't fit into the Chicago boys style laissez-faire economics which many consider to be on the far right of the economic scale. If you compare UKIP with LPUK for example, there seems to be a gulf of difference on a number of issues.
TomPaine
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I doubt that.
Flat rate tax is to the right of the mainstream but hardly "far right" or "radical right" and doesn't break with a mixed economy. The c.20-odd countries that have flat-rate tax are hardly minimal government countries and still have plenty of government regulation of their economies.
CyberRose
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My point was to distinguish between what I mean by "far" as opposed to what I mean by "extreme". Anything else was not relevant to the point I was trying to make
You seem like an intelligent kind of fellow, can't you distinguish between typical "opposition" political rhetoric and actual policy?
How about leaving the EU (and all the social and employment constraints on business) but maintaining a purely free trade agreement?
"Wholesale deregulation" - who benefits from that?
As already mentioned, they favour a flat tax rate (this is actually very far to the right in economic terms and is usually proposed by those wanting to lessen the burden on the rich elite)
The NHS can't really be used to compare parties in the UK because it's just a given that any party to oppose it would be committing political suicide (winning power is, after all, the number one objective before you implement policies), but tellingly they criticise the NHS for not having enough of it privately funded
They aim to cut benefits and end programmes such as employment training schemes as they claim they don't work
More private schools
The above is what I've just skimmed off their manifesto (which you will also have seen) but my opinion is also formed on what they say outside their manifesto and how they vote in the European Parliament. They consistently vote against workers' rights and consistently vote against consumers' rights. They hate any kind of regulation for businesses. All these policies restrict the amount of money a corporation can make and it is therefore pretty obvious that UKIP act with the interests of businesses in their hearts
No offence but you haven't said above what exactly their policies are on the topics you mention above. I just have, and they don't appear to be very central like you are trying to make out (for whatever reason you are trying to portray this image of UKIP for...?)
Well mixed economy can mean anything! And if they are to the right of the conservatives, but not extreme right where there is no government, can you see why I might chose something in the middle to describe them?
In which case I suggest you don't criticise me for things you yourself are guilty of...
CyberRose
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I know, it was a (unsuccessful by the looks of it) hilarious attempt at sarcasm for the benefit of the other posters!
Oh dear
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
It sounds pretty radical right to me.
And the mixed ecomony is a red herring as well. Fascist states had mixed economies, does classic fascist economic thought *and* the BNP support mixed a economy. Some socialists support mixed economies, soical democrats explicitly support mixed economies. It's not a defining characteristic of left or right or extreme/moderate.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I know, it was a (unsuccessful by the looks of it) hilarious attempt at sarcasm for the benefit of the other posters!
Oh dear
Soz, i thought you may have got mixed up with Henry George and other currency cranks.
So would you describe UKIP economic policy as right-wing, far-right-wing or extreme-right-wing?
Personally I'd say right-wing.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I haven't looked at their econiomic policies beyond a quick glance at their policies section - and the falt tax seems to be their only specific policy on the economy. If there are others i then i suspect they're in the same key - i'd certainly describe that as radical right. The in-brief section doesn't say anything much.
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