UKIP apparantly have some principles, reject BNP pact

[goneforlunch]

No, your logic is faulty. You say that you "took note of the title" which is fairly meaningless. You've not really commented on how and why the BNP managed to infiltrate your party and how several members have been expelled for attempting to forge links with the BNP. Does the name Buster Mottram mean anything to you?

I'd have thought it's perfectly obvious 'how' and 'why' the BNP managed to infiltrate the party. No one has to take a lie detector test when they join. People lie to promote their own ends. Buster Mottram and others were immediately expelled from the party after the BNP's offer. Would you have liked the party to keep them?

And you still haven't answered my question.

 

[nino_savatte]

I'd have thought it's perfectly obvious 'how' and 'why' the BNP managed to infiltrate the party. No one has to take a lie detector test when they join. People lie to promote their own ends. Buster Mottram and others were immediately expelled from the party after the BNP's offer. Would you have liked the party to keep them?

And you still haven't answered my question.

As evasive as ever. As obsessed as ever. No wonder UKIP is on the ropes.

Mani, thou shouldst be living at this hour! Oh, this black and white world of binary opposites, how I cling to thy breast for comfort and succour!

 

[nino_savatte]

It's not the first time the BNP has tried this. UKIP always reject them and I'd expect nothing less.

Your first post on this thread just repeats the pat line trotted out by your leadership. No mention of how certain UKIP members actively sought to forge links with the BNP. How many more are there I wonder?

 

[goneforlunch]

As evasive as ever. As obsessed as ever. No wonder UKIP is on the ropes.

I'm as evasive as ever. Oh that's a good one!

"There are no circumstances, no possible situations, in which we would even consider doing any type of deal with the BNP whatsoever," said the UKIP leader, Nigel Farage MEP. "I'm simply amazed that the BNP thought we would even consider such a thing, given that we are a non-racist, non-sectarian party."

No circumstances, no possible situations ... Can it be any clearer?

Tell me, does it matter that most of our laws are now made in EU institutions with hardly any democratic accountability, resulting in what has effectively become a one party state, etc, etc, etc ... And I fully expect you to evade this question!

UKIP is not on the ropes, but I'm open to suggestions for better alternatives ...

 

[goneforlunch]

Your first post on this thread just repeats the pat line trotted out by your leadership. No mention of how certain UKIP members actively sought to forge links with the BNP. How many more are there I wonder?

BNP sympathisers join UKIP for their own ends. There isn't much the party can do about that until such people come out into the open ... when they are expelled from the party.

"There are no circumstances, no possible situations, in which we would even consider doing any type of deal with the BNP whatsoever," said the UKIP leader, Nigel Farage MEP. "I'm simply amazed that the BNP thought we would even consider such a thing, given that we are a non-racist, non-sectarian party."

No circumstances, no possible situations ... Can it be any clearer?

Tell me, does it matter that most of our laws are now made in EU institutions with hardly any democratic accountability, resulting in what has effectively become a one party state, etc, etc, etc ... And I fully expect you to evade this question!

UKIP is not on the ropes, but I'm open to suggestions for better alternatives ...

 

[nino_savatte]

I'm as evasive as ever. Oh that's a good one!

You make some rather black and white assumptions. The question is yes/no and this rather typifies the mindset of small, single interest parties.

No circumstances, no possible situations ... Can it be any clearer?

Tell me, does it matter that most of our laws are now made in EU institutions with hardly any democratic accountability, resulting in what has effectively become a one party state, etc, etc, etc ... And I fully expect you to evade this question!

Given UKIP's obvious ideological leanings, it will happen again. In excoriating the EU (whom you seem to blame for nearly everything) you overlook the nature of the state and its role in all of this; as well as the alignment and realignment of the main parties.

UKIP is not on the ropes, but I'm open to suggestions for better alternatives ...

Well, UKIP isn't an alternative. It doesn't resonate with the youth and it alienates minority groups. Your only visible ethnic faces are Rustie Lee and some other bloke whom I've never heard of. Those numbers represent less than 1% of the party membership. There are more Black and Asian members of the Tory party than there are in UKIP. If I had any suggestions, I wouldn't be handing them over to a UKIP members.

 

[nino_savatte]

BNP sympathisers join UKIP for their own ends. There isn't much the party can do about that until such people come out into the open ... when they are expelled from the party.

So those UKIP members who actively sought to forge links with the BNP were what? Seduced? Led into a honey trap? Given memory-erasing drugs?

 

[goneforlunch]

You make some rather black and white assumptions. The question is yes/no and this rather typifies the mindset of small, single interest parties.

I'm not making any assumptions. I'm actually asking you what you think and you have refused to answer! And UKIP, though small, is not a single interest party.

Given UKIP's obvious ideological leanings, it will happen again. In excoriating the EU (whom you seem to blame for nearly everything) you overlook the nature of the state and its role in all of this.

UKIP is non-racist and non-sectarian. It just doesn't have the leanings you want it to have. I don't 'blame' the EU as much as I blame our own self-serving politicians. But I do blame the EU for things it is now responsible for which I oppose. These things are not hard to find as the government may not deviate from EU policies agreed without democratic accountability.

Well, UKIP isn't an alternative. It doesn't resonate with the youth and it alienates minority groups. Your only visible ethnic faces are Rustie Lee and some other bloke whom I've never heard of. Those numbers represent less than 1% of the party membership. There are more Black and Asian members of the Tory party than there are in UKIP. If I had any suggestions, I wouldn't be handing them over to a UKIP members.

So you won't say which party you think is better? Not very constructive, but okay. I'm not interested in the colour of any party member or candidate; it's an irrelevance to me whether they are black, white or asian. And you don't know the percentage of different racial backgrounds because the party, rightly, does not record them. That you suspect the Tories have more black and asian members doesn't reflect well on those members.

I expect these 'minority groups' you feel the party has alienated do not share UKIP's aims, and so, whilst alienating anyone is unfortunate, it can't be helped. And as for resonating with the youth, it does that on a % basis as much as any party does (apart from the Greens perhaps). But the party still has policies which might well resonate with the young and those interested in politics are listening. So I'll carry on voting UKIP because it resonates with me more than any other party I looked at.

So those UKIP members who actively sought to forge links with the BNP were what? Seduced? Led into a honey trap? Given memory-erasing drugs?

Beneath contempt, and now rightly ex UKIP members.

 

[JimPage]

the funniest thing about this is the re appearence of that utterly surplus individual Buster Mottram .. and what with Edmonds back on the scene this does not suggest a party moving forwards at HQ level, regardless of increasing votes and regional organisation

Think as a parallell brown bringing back mandelson- which is clearly working for Labour. Its more symblic than anything, and i dont think Edmonds actually holds any office in the party any more, even at branch level

BNP state Mottram in not a BNP member, but if he does become one, expect a high ranking place on their Euro election lists for him, perhaps

 

[Dillinger4]

That's interesting because my experience of them has been quite the opposite. They were hoping to win Thanet South in the last General elections it was one of the top ten marginal seats. Their canvassing here was more right wing than that of the BNP was.

A few members of the first UKIP 'youth wing' were in my class at university, and they were all far right wing weirdo's.

 

[HackneyE9]

Ditto. I've quite a bit of experience of them, and they're exclusively golf-club tory types. To be charitable, perhaps more straightfowardly purely xenophobic than the outright racism of the BNP. But never come across a leftie, anti-bankers Brussels type in UKIP.

 

[CyberRose]

What's the title of this thread? You don't seem to have noticed.

A bit rich coming from you innit?!

Why don't you just answer her perfectly reasonable question?

Or is it because, as usual, you don't like to put your cards on the table because if you do you open yourself up to criticism from others (which is a big fear of yours) and, more likely, that you might actually have to engage in a discussion without having simply to rely on insults and belittling people like you are doing now. Fuck me you're really hard aren't ya?

UKIP have a well documented history of racists within their number, and evidence would suggest behind the scene deals have been done with the BNP, or at the very least, tactical decisions have been made not to oppose them as both parties share a similar type of supporter...

 

[goneforlunch]

A bit rich coming from you innit?!

Why don't you just answer her perfectly reasonable question?

Or is it because, as usual, you don't like to put your cards on the table because if you do you open yourself up to criticism from others (which is a big fear of yours) and, more likely, that you might actually have to engage in a discussion without having simply to rely on insults and belittling people like you are doing now. Fuck me you're really hard aren't ya?

Why thank you.

UKIP have a well documented history of racists within their number, and evidence would suggest behind the scene deals have been done with the BNP, or at the very least, tactical decisions have been made not to oppose them as both parties share a similar type of supporter...

UKIP has had its share of racists, as have the Labour and Tory parties, but evidence suggests nothing of the sort, and both parties don't share similar types of supporters as they are very different parties, but both parties are anti-EU but for different reasons.

I seem to remember you're a pro-EU Labour supporter, but what about HackneyE9 and Dillinger4? I'm still looking for a better option than UKIP ... Mainstream political parties are not acceptable.

 

[nino_savatte]

A bit rich coming from you innit?!

Why don't you just answer her perfectly reasonable question?

Or is it because, as usual, you don't like to put your cards on the table because if you do you open yourself up to criticism from others (which is a big fear of yours) and, more likely, that you might actually have to engage in a discussion without having simply to rely on insults and belittling people like you are doing now. Fuck me you're really hard aren't ya?

UKIP have a well documented history of racists within their number, and evidence would suggest behind the scene deals have been done with the BNP, or at the very least, tactical decisions have been made not to oppose them as both parties share a similar type of supporter...

What's "rich" is your posturing. The question is a black and white one and she is using it to score points...a little like you: a cheap point-scorer who tends to slip and slide around when put on the spot. In fact, you tend to favour the black/white/yes/no question too. As for "fear of criticism" you might like to check yourself in the mirror sometime, pal.

Btw, the question of whether or not I "support" the EU is irrelevant.

There's an old saying "People in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones". You would do well to learn and remember that.

 

[nino_savatte]

I'm not making any assumptions. I'm actually asking you what you think and you have refused to answer! And UKIP, though small, is not a single interest party.

No, your standard reply tends to be "Do you think we should stay in the EU"? Beyond that, you have nothing else to say...just like UKIP.

UKIP is non-racist and non-sectarian. It just doesn't have the leanings you want it to have. I don't 'blame' the EU as much as I blame our own self-serving politicians. But I do blame the EU for things it is now responsible for which I oppose. These things are not hard to find as the government may not deviate from EU policies agreed without democratic accountability.

You forgot "right wing", "libertarian" and single issue.

So you won't say which party you think is better? Not very constructive, but okay. I'm not interested in the colour of any party member or candidate; it's an irrelevance to me whether they are black, white or asian. And you don't know the percentage of different racial backgrounds because the party, rightly, does not record them. That you suspect the Tories have more black and asian members doesn't reflect well on those members.

I don't support political parties nor am I a member of one. The Tories do have more minority members than UKIP. That's a fact. Most of UKIP tends to be over the age of 45.

I expect these 'minority groups' you feel the party has alienated do not share UKIP's aims, and so, whilst alienating anyone is unfortunate, it can't be helped. And as for resonating with the youth, it does that on a % basis as much as any party does (apart from the Greens perhaps). But the party still has policies which might well resonate with the young and those interested in politics are listening. So I'll carry on voting UKIP because it resonates with me more than any other party I looked at.

So what?

Beneath contempt, and now rightly ex UKIP members.

Jolly good for you...until the next time.

 

[goneforlunch]

No, your standard reply tends to be "Do you think we should stay in the EU"? Beyond that, you have nothing else to say...just like UKIP.

I have a great deal to say, but not here. Classic left v right arguments on internet message boards are a waste of time imo and better sorted out on polling day in the privacy of the ballot box. I've said before the left is not *wrong* any more than the right is *right*. I have every respect for principled left wing debaters. And if there's anything specific you want to know my views on, you only have to ask.

And I'll ask again ... do you think we should stay in or leave the EU? But carry on twisting in the wind if you want to.

You forgot "right wing", "libertarian" and single issue.

I forgot nothing. The party tends more towards the right wing and that's not a problem for me provided the tendency is controlled. It is libertarian, something I fully support, but it's most definitely not single issue. It has more policies than the mainstream parties put together. Their only 'policies' are ones the EU approves of.

And I'm not interested in point scoring.

I don't support political parties nor am I a member of one. The Tories do have more minority members than UKIP. That's a fact. Most of UKIP tends to be over the age of 45.

So you have no alternative party. Do you even vote? I guess not! How on earth do you know that the Tories have more minority members than UKIP???? And most members of most political parties tend to be over 45. It's the policies which count.

So what?

Jolly good for you...until the next time.

So what nothing. You brought all that up, I just answered you. And until the next time? Will that be the next time UKIP's opponents latch onto perceived racism and you use it to score points?

 

[CyberRose]

What's "rich" is your posturing. The question is a black and white one and she is using it to score points...a little like you: a cheap point-scorer who tends to slip and slide around when put on the spot. In fact, you tend to favour the black/white/yes/no question too. As for "fear of criticism" you might like to check yourself in the mirror sometime, pal.

Btw, the question of whether or not I "support" the EU is irrelevant.

I honestly cannot understand why you can't answer that simple question. Seems to me like all you're here for is to criticise everyone for everything without divulging your own views on the subject. And yes, it is rich and hypocritical on your part as I seem to recall you and a few others chasing a certain poster around the Middle East forum constantly demanding said poster answer questions of their own, despite not having any relevance to the thread.

Let me put it this way, of all the threads on the EU, you've not stated your position once, otherwise we wouldn't be having this argument would we? That is VERY telling of your motivation for participating in such threads - it is not to engage in debate but merely to bully posters. Like I said before, you're really hard

 

[brasicritique]

That wouldn't be difficult.

never said it was so nah

 

[nino_savatte]

I honestly cannot understand why you can't answer that simple question. Seems to me like all you're here for is to criticise everyone for everything without divulging your own views on the subject. And yes, it is rich and hypocritical on your part as I seem to recall you and a few others chasing a certain poster around the Middle East forum constantly demanding said poster answer questions of their own, despite not having any relevance to the thread.

Let me put it this way, of all the threads on the EU, you've not stated your position once, otherwise we wouldn't be having this argument would we? That is VERY telling of your motivation for participating in such threads - it is not to engage in debate but merely to bully posters. Like I said before, you're really hard

You love the sound of your own voice, don't you? I don't have to answer that question. Why? Because it is pretty damned obvious where I stand: I don't support the policies of UKIP and I have no time for small parties with even smaller agendas. Goneforlunch can only ask one question and that sums up the position of UKIP. It also says a lot about your small-minded and parochial attitude if you have to ride to goneforlunch's defense like some self appointed defender of 'freedom'.

If you're referring to Rachamim, you really have lost the plot. I don't "chase" him around. Do you engage with him? Do you actually read his long-winded essay-apologies? No, you don't. So STFU.

All you are doing here is pursuing your tired and sad vendetta.

it is not to engage in debate but merely to bully posters.

Pot-kettle-black, son. You chase posters around the boards if you can't get your own way. Try looking at yourself for a change, pal.

 

[nino_savatte]

And I'll ask again ... do you think we should stay in or leave the EU? But carry on twisting in the wind if you want to.

You and your party are obsessed. Your constant repetition of this question underlines that obsession. let's put it this way: I don't support UKIP and I think your policies are barking. If your party is so dead against the EU, then why does it sit in the European Parliament? UKIP has no principles.

I put that question to you last time and you didn't answer it. So you have no room to talk.

Here, like CR, you offer presumptions.

So you have no alternative party. Do you even vote? I guess not! How on earth do you know that the Tories have more minority members than UKIP???? And most members of most political parties tend to be over 45. It's the policies which count.

Is not supporting or being a member of a party equivalent with suffrage? No, it isn't. I like the way you say "It's the policies which count", which is why UKIP remain a small (Anglo-centric) party and have no representation north of the border or in Wales.

 

[_float_]

UKIP are not my political cup of tea but Farage is good value sometimes, like on this YouTube clip of him slamming into various proposed Commissioners.

Nigel Farage on who's who in the EU commission

Maybe worth having UKIP on the ballott for European elections just so a few can go over there and stir it up a bit?

 

[_float_]

...If your party is so dead against the EU, then why does it sit in the European Parliament? UKIP has no principles...

This doesn't follow. The UKIP typically vote against proposals of further integration. There is a coherent argument that if something exists you need to engage with it even if you wish that ideally it didn't exist at all.

I don't vote UKIP by the way, and I am not that 'anti-Europe'. I am however suspicious of anti-democratic 'behind-the-scenes' moves by big-government and big-business interests and the EU seems propone to this kind of thing by the way it is designed.

 

[nino_savatte]

This doesn't follow. The UKIP typically vote against proposals of further integration. There is a coherent argument that if something exists you need to engage with it even if you wish that ideally it didn't exist at all.

I don't vote UKIP by the way, and I am not that 'anti-Europe'. I am however suspicious of anti-democratic 'behind-the-scenes' moves by big-government and big-business interests and the EU seems propone to this kind of thing by the way it is designed.

I think it's hypocritical to sit in a parliament that you desire to abolish. There are other ways to oppose the EU. Sitting in its parliament and accepting a salary opens one to the charge of double standards.

I think the EU is a good idea in principle and, if it upsets right wingers, all the better. Obviously it needs to be more democratic, but the EU is only as good as its members. Now if UKIP were more geared towards reform rather than abolition, then I wouldn't have much to offer in terms of criticism, but while its MEPs sit in parliament and draw a salary, then I will continue to criticise them and their small-minded, Anglo-centric attitudes.

 

[CyberRose]

I don't have to answer that question.

Nobody has to answer any questions, it'd just be a help (and polite) if you could in this case

Because it is pretty damned obvious where I stand: I don't support the policies of UKIP

Ok, so you're in favour of EU membership, fine, wouldn't it have just been easier to say so a while back?

If you're referring to Rachamim, you really have lost the plot. I don't "chase" him around.

Oh come now Nino, we both know that to be untrue!

Do you engage with him? Do you actually read his long-winded essay-apologies? No, you don't. So STFU.

I tried to engage with him but very soon discovered there wasn't any point. It's a shame you're taking so long to come to the same conclusion, but then, that would suggest you chase him around to debate with him, You don't try to "engage" him in any way shape or form and if you deny that I will gladly provide a link to your last response to him that proves otherwise.

All you are doing here is pursuing your tired and sad vendetta.

I refer you to my original point: That is rich coming from Mr Nino "Vendetta" Savatte

Pot-kettle-black, son. You chase posters around the boards if you can't get your own way. Try looking at yourself for a change, pal.

Who exactly do I chase around the boards? If you're referring to yourself then can you explain my absence from practically every single thread you participate in? The only reason I am in this thread is because the subject interests me, as you well know.

I would also like you to explain your posting in the West Ham thread if YOU don't chase posters around...

 

[CyberRose]

Maybe worth having UKIP on the ballott for European elections just so a few can go over there and stir it up a bit?

Well considering this thread is about a possible alliance with UKIP and the BNP, would you say similar about BNP MEPs? Don't forget one of UKIP's MEPs was kicked out of the party and subsequently went to sit in the far-right European party which is where the BNP would join if they get anyone elected...

 

[nino_savatte]

Nobody has to answer any questions, it'd just be a help (and polite) if you could in this case


Ok, so you're in favour of EU membership, fine, wouldn't it have just been easier to say so a while back?


Oh come now Nino, we both know that to be untrue!


I tried to engage with him but very soon discovered there wasn't any point. It's a shame you're taking so long to come to the same conclusion, but then, that would suggest you chase him around to debate with him, You don't try to "engage" him in any way shape or form and if you deny that I will gladly provide a link to your last response to him that proves otherwise.


I refer you to my original point: That is rich coming from Mr Nino "Vendetta" Savatte


Who exactly do I chase around the boards? If you're referring to yourself then can you explain my absence from practically every single thread you participate in? The only reason I am in this thread is because the subject interests me, as you well know.

I would also like you to explain your posting in the West Ham thread if YOU don't chase posters around...

You're such a hypocrite. Here, you accuse me of "chasing posters around" while at the same time you ignore your own faults. You're a hypocrite and a liar as this demonstrates

Oh come now Nino, we both know that to be untrue!

If you can't get your own way, then lie, it works a treat.

I would also like you to explain your posting in the West Ham thread if YOU don't chase posters around...

The construction of the myth continues. I don't have to ask your permission to post on threads in the Sports forum. If you think I was there to 'harass' you, you're paranoiac as well as an egomaniac.

I'm not going to waste any more words on you, it clearly isn't worth my while. I have other, more interesting things to do.

 

[_float_]

Well considering this thread is about a possible alliance with UKIP and the BNP, would you say similar about BNP MEPs?

No I wouldn't say the same thing about BNP MEPs because the BNP are a bunch of racist, neo-fascist scum. I regard UKIP as more of an anti-Europe splinter group from the Conservative party, although it is hard to know about individuals until they unmask themselves (eg Kilroy-Silk = complete wanker, for example).

 

[CyberRose]

You're such a hypocrite. Here, you accuse me of "chasing posters around" while at the same time you ignore your own faults. You're a hypocrite and a liar as this demonstrates

If you post in a thread I am interested in and I spot you playing your little games, I will say something. However, I see you playing your games in many many more threads but I don't post because I have no interest in those threads. Therefore, it is a complete lie to tell me that I chase you around. You also won't be able to give me any examples of me chasing anyone else around for that matter.

The construction of the myth continues. I don't have to ask your permission to post on threads in the Sports forum. If you think I was there to 'harass' you, you're paranoiac as well as an egomaniac

May I draw your attention to your very first post in the West Ham thread:

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=6833219&postcount=1253

And so much more tellingly is the post that followed that one:

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=6833225&postcount=1254



Over to you, if you've got nothing better to do of course

 

[CyberRose]

No I wouldn't say the same thing about BNP MEPs because the BNP are a bunch of racist, neo-fascist scum. I regard UKIP as more of an anti-Europe splinter group from the Conservative party, although it is hard to know about individuals until they unmask themselves (eg Kilroy-Silk = complete wanker, for example).

Yes UKIP is racism for the middle classes and the BNP is racism for the working classes!

No, you are right that UKIP is a splinter group from the Conservatives, but it is the extreme right of the Tories and that does include the political right as well as the economic right. Goneforlunch will tell you that every party has its racists, but UKIP does have a much higher proportion than most, despite what she says.

Still, I don't know what your political views are, but I don't particularly like any type of Tory, let alone the extreme right of the party, so no, I don't think it is worth having right wing MEPs take the place of MEPs who will actually go to Brussels to do what they are supposed to do...

 

[nino_savatte]

If you post in a thread I am interested in and I spot you playing your little games, I will say something. However, I see you playing your games in many many more threads but I don't post because I have no interest in those threads. Therefore, it is a complete lie to tell me that I chase you around. You also won't be able to give me any examples of me chasing anyone else around for that matter.


May I draw your attention to your very first post in the West Ham thread:

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=6833219&postcount=1253

And so much more tellingly is the post that followed that one:

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=6833225&postcount=1254



Over to you, if you've got nothing better to do of course

Not exactly evidence of me "following you around" though, is it? If you think that proves that I am "following you around", then I'd hate to think what's going on inside that head of yours.

Your first paragraph is quite revealing. It rather proves my suspicions about you and sums up your [empty] egotism.