UK 'Al-Qaeda' plotter: so what's his crime then?

[detective-boy]

And it's worthy of note that even now, 2 years after arrest, the police have just said they have still not been able to access all the information on the computers he had - some because of encrytion, some because they have been able to make sense of it. Expect to see this mentioned next time the 90 day detention pre-charge comes up (but, equally, feel free to point out that they managed this one with only 14 days to play with (just!) and they now have 28!)

And, for those who say why don't people just get put under surveillance, note that even in this case, with one of the most important targets, with every possible resource deployed, they STILL managed to lose him (hence his arrest on re-appearance as they feared if it happened again he may actually do something)

 

[Kameron]

Why?

Because Nazis who signed requisition forms for railway trucks and barbed wire killed people as a result of there actions. Dhiren Barot on the other hand is a fantasy role player of Dungeons and Dragons school who stopped being able to tell the difference between fantasy and reality.

We are looking at someone who meticulously planned an operation so far out side of his skill set to undertake that it is clearly in the realm of fantasy.

For example his plan to obtain radioactive material from 100,000 smoke alarms while accurately costed with regard to purchase and storage of the smoke alarms doesn't contain anything that we have seen about the complex task or getting material for a dirty bomb from such a device.

You see there is a reason that Dhiren Barot would have been able to buy that many smoke alarms (the reason he choose that device rather than any other) and that it that it is uncontrolled and readily available. That is because alpha particle sources are not that dangerous - the energy of gamma rays from Americium is something like 0.0011 mSv/yr @ 1m, this is so low that you could eat a significant quantity (several smoke alarms worth) and suffer no ill effect, a lower dose would be received from the whole content of a smoke alarm being eaten than you'd get on one transatlantic flight. Hardly the most dangerous thing to ever happen in central London lets say.

What does this type of analysis of Dhiren Barot's plan do for you? Would you like me to break down the theft of an oil tanker and ramming it into the New York water front next? Or maybe you would like an analysis of how his non-existence chemistry background would have helped him produce enough explosive to fill dozens of limos with tons of explosive to blow up hotels.

Or how about we do the maths on how much explosives would be required to "rupture the Thames" using explosive in a tube train? GIVE ME A BREAK, does this not sound like a fantasy to you?

Why do you think that any of this is similar to some Nazi pen pusher signing orders for the gassing on millions of Jews? Sounds like Dungeons and Dragons to me; shall we play global thermonuclear war next?

 

[lostexpectation]

Ah! This may explain why I didn't find it when I looked!

And no, he hasn't been sentenced for having an overactive imagination, opr writing a document. He was sentenced for having conspired to murder. This is a classic example of why it is so difficult to convict of conspiracy charges - the police DO intervene early (so there is a reduced chance of anyone getting hurt) and no-one believes it was actually intended to happen.

What would the thread have looked like if, perchance, he had been shot on arrest in some Forest Gate style mistake? (Guess: Police shoot innocent man - no evidence to support alleged role as terrorist (there was virtually fuck all evidence (as opposed to intelligence) at the time of his arrest)

isn't this guy related to the US Khan leak?

 

[Groucho]

*Groucho immediately wipes his pc of all traces of his plan to lassoo the moon with a giant elastic band and cause it to crash into the US of A.*

Phew! Came close to conviction there!

Back to the plot. Was there evidence that this nutter had, or was taking steps to obtain, the resources, know-how, contacts and/or materials to make any of these fantasies real? It seems not. A fantasist who endulges in such mad fantasies might just well plea guilty to being the most dangerous terrorist the World has ever known. Doesn't mean he was. How many people attempt to turn themselves in for murders they haven't (and couldn't have) committed? As I say he may need medical attention and may not have been capable of being a terrorist at all.

 

[Streathamite]

he'd been to the various training camps in PK - so I'd guess he at the least had the contacts to find the necessary fireworks kit, as it were.
for once, i'm with dibble. I think they did hit it right here - either that, or this bloke should be held in a nuthouse for being such a bizarre fantasist (down to confessing guilty etc, at the risk of the 40 years it got him), until he's no longer a danger to himself.

 

[Idris2002]

Don't forget that Michael Stone was refused by the loyalists for being too unstable - but he still killed people at Milltown cemetery.

I think the real test will be when his alleged co-conspirators are tried. If they go down too, it'll start looking more and more like the real thing, not just the ravings of someone who might have been a Trekkie in happier circumstances.

 

[Kameron]

There’s only fuck all evidence for a threat of terrorism if your ignoring the times when terrorism actually happened.

We are getting blown up much less often than when the IRA was having a go frankly, I'd say that terrorism was in a bit of a recession at the moment.

 

[kyser_soze]

Some of his ideas were way out there, or simply the result of not-good physics (the bomb under the Thames was the one that got me smiling), but there were also some practical terror plots in there that could have easily been implemented and effective, esp the limo's - long, blacked out windows, always driving around packed civvie places late at night...doesn't take too much imagination to think of the carnage such a car could cause at 10pm around Picadilly circus or Shaftsbury Avenue on a Friday or SAturday night.

 

[weltweit]

I think it is interesting to view this case through the prism of political rhetoric.

"tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime"

It seems clear his crime was to conspire to carry out terrorist actions and kill civilians in the UK and USA. I would assume he was not a deluded fantasist or the police and courts would probably not have taken him so seriously.

But what are the causes of this crime?

Anyone care to offer some ideas?

And perhaps also ideas as to how our leaders can be tough on the causes of this crime?

 

[Bigdavalad]

Because Nazis who signed requisition forms for railway trucks and barbed wire killed people as a result of there actions. Dhiren Barot on the other hand is a fantasy role player of Dungeons and Dragons school who stopped being able to tell the difference between fantasy and reality.

So the only difference then is this guy was arrested before he tried his plan out for real?

We are looking at someone who meticulously planned an operation so far out side of his skill set to undertake that it is clearly in the realm of fantasy.

So was the German invasion of the USSR - they still gave it a go and killed a few people doing it.

For example his plan to obtain radioactive material from 100,000 smoke alarms while accurately costed with regard to purchase and storage of the smoke alarms doesn't contain anything that we have seen about the complex task or getting material for a dirty bomb from such a device.
You see there is a reason that Dhiren Barot would have been able to buy that many smoke alarms (the reason he choose that device rather than any other) and that it that it is uncontrolled and readily available. That is because alpha particle sources are not that dangerous - the energy of gamma rays from Americium is something like 0.0011 mSv/yr @ 1m, this is so low that you could eat a significant quantity (several smoke alarms worth) and suffer no ill effect, a lower dose would be received from the whole content of a smoke alarm being eaten than you'd get on one transatlantic flight. Hardly the most dangerous thing to ever happen in central London lets say.

Maybe not, someone actively planning ways off setting radioactive devices in central London is probably not the safest person to have running round free is it?

What does this type of analysis of Dhiren Barot's plan do for you?

It made me warm and tingly inside.

Would you like me to break down the theft of an oil tanker and ramming it into the New York water front next?

If you want - astound me.

Or maybe you would like an analysis of how his non-existence chemistry background would have helped him produce enough explosive to fill dozens of limos with tons of explosive to blow up hotels.

Like those renowned chemists of the IRA who regularly managed to make enough explosives with fertiliser, diesel and icing sugar to devastate whole town centres?

Or how about we do the maths on how much explosives would be required to "rupture the Thames" using explosive in a tube train? GIVE ME A BREAK, does this not sound like a fantasy to you?

So if a bomb goes off on a tube train and the tunnel doesn't collapse, it doesn't really matter?

Why do you think that any of this is similar to some Nazi pen pusher signing orders for the gassing on millions of Jews? Sounds like Dungeons and Dragons to me; shall we play global thermonuclear war next?

Because the man signing the order never actually killed anyone themselves - Hitler never torched a village, Himmler never gassed a Jew, Goering never bombed civillians. They were still responsible for what happened.

 

[kyser_soze]

But what are the causes of this crime?

Anyone care to offer some ideas?

And perhaps also ideas as to how our leaders can be tough on the causes of this crime?

These are all subjective depending on your viewpoint and how you see the balance of influences. Some would say 'BlairBush!BlairBush!BlairBush!', some would say 'Lunatic muslims who hate the West' and all the places inbetween those idiot polarised views where the real reason probably lies.

 

[detective-boy]

isn't this guy related to the US Khan leak?

Not sure.

 

[Kameron]

When I did my A-Levels one of the projects I did was "How to Build a Gun-type fission weapon". This is the simplest type of fission bomb to build and should not be too difficult to build especially in a fixed installation. I included detailed plans for an initiator, calculations of yield, the sort of premises' that might be needed, engineering tools. The project was costed (with the exception of the fissile material). I got an A*. The plans are still at my parents house, the computer I wrote the project up on in in my parents garage at the moment and is dead as a door nail as far as being a computer goes but I'm sure would be a rich source of evidence of my research into DIY fission bombs.

 

[detective-boy]

Expect to see this mentioned next time the 90 day detention pre-charge comes up (but, equally, feel free to point out that they managed this one with only 14 days to play with (just!) and they now have 28!)

Is this forum being monitored by BBC News 24 in real-fucking-time - they're discussing precisely this right now ...

* Pops down Ladbrokes to pick up winnings! *

 

[kyser_soze]

Have you attempted to pursue your fission gun tho Kam? Have you contacted known NLCs in Pakistan and spent time training with them?

I know where you're coming from - some of the ideas were just idiotic - but some of them were deadly serious (and indeed had already been 'road tested' - van bombs in underground carparks) and there's a difference between writing a school project and sending your ideas off to a known bunch of NLCs and corresponding with them...

Plus of course the dude has said clearly that he wanted to do it.

 

[detective-boy]

I think the real test will be when his alleged co-conspirators are tried.

As far as I know, he hasn't spoken of any and I don't think any are known, at least not within UK jurisdiction. Are there any other related charges - I would be very surprised to find there is no reporting restriction in place if there are.

 

[Groucho]

he'd been to the various training camps in PK - so I'd guess he at the least had the contacts to find the necessary fireworks kit, as it were.
for once, i'm with dibble. I think they did hit it right here - either that, or this bloke should be held in a nuthouse for being such a bizarre fantasist (down to confessing guilty etc, at the risk of the 40 years it got him), until he's no longer a danger to himself.

The prosecution said he'd been to 'training camps'.

Stuff like a plan to blow up the tubes with enough explosives to rupture the tunnel and cause massive flooding just sounds silly. It is just not realistic is it? Sadly there are far more realistic ways of causing mass murder.

Seems that, if he really did submit his plans to A-Q for funding and for supplies, they turned him down. I don't think a serious terrorist plot has been foiled. Far more likely that A-Q will have dismissed his 'plans' as implausable and will have instead directed their resources to a more realistic murderous plot. He might have been a willing participant in a suicide terrorist event though...

 

[Idris2002]

As far as I know, he hasn't spoken of any and I don't think any are known, at least not within UK jurisdiction. Are there any other related charges - I would be very surprised to find there is no reporting restriction in place if there are.

Ah bollocks, my image as a polymathic know-it-all is punctured. I thought this was the sentencing from a case last month, in which one plotter pleaded but others were to be tried later.

 

[Groucho]

As far as I know, he hasn't spoken of any and I don't think any are known, at least not within UK jurisdiction. Are there any other related charges - I would be very surprised to find there is no reporting restriction in place if there are.

Aren't the prosecution claiming 7 co-conspiritors? He hasn't acknowledged them though.

 

[Groucho]

Ah bollocks, my image as a polymathic know-it-all is punctured. I thought this was the sentencing from a case last month, in which one plotter pleaded but others were to be tried later.

I think that is correct.

 

[Neva]

We are getting blown up much less often than when the IRA was having a go frankly, I'd say that terrorism was in a bit of a recession at the moment.

Two points here I think.

One your making the assumption that less instances of terrorism means there are fewer attempting it. It is just as likely that we are 'getting blown up much less' because the police/intelligence services are doing their job better and catching people before they can commit their crimes, something that this latest case would seem to suggest.

Secondly even if you are right and terrorism is genuinely receding then there’s still absolutely zero basis for your earlier claim that there's ‘fuck all evidence’ for a threat of terrorism.

 

[detective-boy]

Ah bollocks, my image as a polymathic know-it-all is punctured. I thought this was the sentencing from a case last month, in which one plotter pleaded but others were to be tried later.

I don't know - it might be for all I know, but it is very rare for the detail that is coming out to be released before a trial of others.

 

[kyser_soze]

Stuff like a plan to blow up the tubes with enough explosives to rupture the tunnel and cause massive flooding just sounds silly

Well that bit was fairly ridiculous...however, we've all seen that not much explosive on a tube causes plenty of death and injury, even if it doesn't blow a hole through to a river.

 

[Kameron]

Do you really mean that someone who genuinely wants to kill people, but chooses a method which would have been very difficult (or even impossible) to achieve in practice should be acquitted?

Thought crime is still not a crime though.

 

[Bigdavalad]

Thought crime is still not a crime though.

Except it clearly is, because he got 40 years in nick for it.

 

[detective-boy]

Thought crime is still not a crime though.

Conspiracy is though. Conspiracy is not simply thinking something. It is actively planning with someone else to make it happen.

 

[Kameron]

One your making the assumption that less instances of terrorism means there are fewer attempting it. It is just as likely that we are 'getting blown up much less' because the police/intelligence services are doing their job better and catching people before they can commit their crimes, something that this latest case would seem to suggest.

Lets us just stick to what we know innit. What we know is that if Barot is the most dangerous terrorist then we are in a pretty safe place.

The police/intelligence services do make a frightfully big noise every time they catch a 'plot' and so they have to too justify their funding, it is just when we unpick the plots they turn out to be wildly unlikely liquid explosives and James Bondesque crashing oil tankers into cities type plots.

Or may be you think there are lots more credible plots that we never get to hear about and we only get to hear the out landishly stupid ones? Please, apply some critical faculties here.

 

[detective-boy]

I think that is correct.

Think I've sussed it:

The co-conspirators are persons unknown - hence there are no more conspiracy trials to come.

There were loads of other charges against him (having information, etc) "left on the file". They will not be proceeded with against him.

There are seven other defendants to be tried, I suspect on similar, lesser charges. The information being released now will be avoiding the information on which the others will be tried (that probably explains the interim reporting restrictions which have now been relaxed - whilst the court decided where to draw the line on what could and couldn't be released). I also suspect it means that, at worst, the others will only be referred to as associates of Barots, not co-conspirators.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/...s+mass+terror+outrage+in+US+and+UK/article.do

 

[Kameron]

Conspiracy is though. Conspiracy is not simply thinking something. It is actively planning with someone else to make it happen.

And active planning is what there really isn't any evidence of that we have seen, no sign of the persons or persons unknown, just some vague assertions that he was a member of Al-Qaeda and travelled to Pakistan to look for someone to show his hair brained scheme to.

The best example of active planning that they have put in the public domain is some google searches for hotels with underground car parks. Now where is my reality meter gone?

 

[Neva]

Lets us just stick to what we know innit. What we know is that if Barot is the most dangerous terrorist then we are in a pretty safe place.

As a hardline empiricist I agree completely that we should stick to what we know. All the assumptions in this thread are coming from those attacking the sentence. 'It's all just obviously fantasy!' or 'Oh maybe he really is a terrorist but he could never have pulled it off it's so ridiculous’.