UK 'Al-Qaeda' plotter: so what's his crime then?

[Divisive Cotton]

Being in charge of an active imagination?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6123236.stm

 

[lighterthief]

Conspiracy to murder? That's what he's admitted to.

 

[Bigdavalad]

Conspiracy to murder according to that link

 

[longdog]

Sounds like a fantasist to me.

But a dangerous one.

 

[sumimasen]

Being in charge of an active imagination?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6123236.stm

You got a problem with the sentence?

 

[Divisive Cotton]

All I can read is that he's had a 40 years minimum sentance for writing a document - nowhere in the civilised world is this proportionate or fair

 

[lighterthief]

All I can read is that he's had a 40 years minimum sentance for writing a document - nowhere in the civilised world is this proportionate or fair

Ah, so it's his sentence you are opposed to, rather than his conviction?

 

[editor]

(Title edited for clarity and thread moved)

 

[SubZeroCat]

All I can read is that he's had a 40 years minimum sentance for writing a document - nowhere in the civilised world is this proportionate or fair

He made plans to fuck up London city and kill thousands, not just any old document don't you think?

 

[Neva]

All I can read is that he's had a 40 years minimum sentance for writing a document - nowhere in the civilised world is this proportionate or fair

It is when the document is a plan to kill lots of people dude.

 

[Bigdavalad]

All I can read is that he's had a 40 years minimum sentance for writing a document - nowhere in the civilised world is this proportionate or fair

All some of the top Nazis ever did was write documents and I don't think you could say their sentences were undeserved. Considering what his document was, he was lucky to get away with 40 years.

 

[Kameron]

You got a problem with the sentence?

Yeah. This whole case helps the government make you feel like there is a credible threat when there is fuck all in the way of evidence for this. It is just like the liquid explosives thing. It just is not plausible; these things are being dreamed up fantasist that I put in the same category as the conspiracy nutters who think that the WTC was blown up with the CIA using invisible missiles and holographic planes.

 

[JHE]

All I can read is that he's had a 40 years minimum sentance for writing a document - nowhere in the civilised world is this proportionate or fair

Really? He was convicted of conspiracy to murder, not "writing a document".

The judge told Barot: "This was no noble cause. Your plans were to bring indiscriminate carnage, bloodshed and butchery first in Washington, New York and Newark, and thereafter the UK on a colossal and unprecedented scale." ​

What's the appropriate sentence for plotting mass murder?



I'm glad he's been sentenced to life with a 40-year tariff. He needs to be stopped from doing his jihadi thing and, short of executing the git, locking him up for a very long time is the best that can be done to render him harmless.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

Ah, so it's his sentence you are opposed to, rather than his conviction?

Well - I was being sarcastic - I don't know what he's done

There was a document found on a laptop in Pakistan in which

"The central plan was for the construction and deployment in a basement car park underneath a building of an improvised explosive device using gas cylinders hidden in limousines."

(my italics)
WTF! Come on

Mr Lawson added it was to be launched simultaneously with other attacks including a dirty bomb, an attack on trains, and the hijacking of petrol tankers to be rammed into a target.

It's like an Ian Flemming novel

Barot also planned to strike the IMF and the World Bank in Washington DC, the New York Stock Exchange building, the Citigroup headquarters and the Prudential building in Newark, New Jersey.

I'm sure he did

Mr Lawson conceded the police had not found any evidence that materials had been acquired to carry out the plans

So it was just a plan then? It was claimed that he's a member of Al-Qaeda - how do they know this? Was he working alone or was anybody else convicted in connection with these plans?

 

[Kameron]

All some of the top Nazis ever did was write documents and I don't think you could say their sentences were undeserved. Considering what his document was, he was lucky to get away with 40 years.

You comparison is hysterical and flawed.

 

[Bigdavalad]

So it was just a plan then? It was claimed that he's a member of Al-Qaeda - how do they know this? Was he working alone or was anybody else convicted in connection with these plans?

September 11th, July 7th and the Madrid attacks were all just a plan at some point - why wait until he's set off a dirty bomb, set an IED in a basement car park off, blown a train up and rammed a petrol tanker into a target before you arrest him?

 

[Bigdavalad]

You comparison is hysterical and flawed.

Why?

 

[Gavin Bl]

once upon a time, hijacking planes with stanley knves, and using them as flying suicide-bombs against huge buildings seemed fairly far fetched to most people.

 

[Kameron]

It is when the document is a plan to kill lots of people dude.

There was a thread on Urban not so long ago about how you might go about opening securico boxes. I think that you should get a sense of propotion. We are talking fantasy and pretty out there fantasy as well. I think you should get a grip on the difference between truth and fiction.

 

[Neva]

Yeah. This whole case helps the government make you feel like there is a credible threat when there is fuck all in the way of evidence for this. It is just like the liquid explosives thing. It just is not plausible; these things are being dreamed up fantasist that I put in the same category as the conspiracy nutters who think that the WTC was blown up with the CIA using invisible missiles and holographic planes.

There’s only fuck all evidence for a threat of terrorism if your ignoring the times when terrorism actually happened.

 

[detective-boy]

(Title edited for clarity and thread moved)

Ah! This may explain why I didn't find it when I looked!

And no, he hasn't been sentenced for having an overactive imagination, opr writing a document. He was sentenced for having conspired to murder. This is a classic example of why it is so difficult to convict of conspiracy charges - the police DO intervene early (so there is a reduced chance of anyone getting hurt) and no-one believes it was actually intended to happen.

What would the thread have looked like if, perchance, he had been shot on arrest in some Forest Gate style mistake? (Guess: Police shoot innocent man - no evidence to support alleged role as terrorist (there was virtually fuck all evidence (as opposed to intelligence) at the time of his arrest)

What would the thread have looked like if he had denied the allegations
rather than admitted them? (Guess: Like the threads about the fertiliser plot or the Heathrow plot - police totally overreact, wouldn;t ever have happened, he's just a harmless dreamer ...)

Remember this next time one of those types of thread arises. If he hadn't admitted his guilt it would NOT NOT NOT have looked obvious and could have been portrayed as total overreaction.

 

[Neva]

There was a thread on Urban not so long ago about how you might go about opening securico boxes. I think that you should get a sense of propotion. We are talking fantasy and pretty out there fantasy as well. I think you should get a grip on the difference between truth and fiction.

So give me your evidence this is fiction please.

 

[Groucho]

Yeah. This whole case helps the government make you feel like there is a credible threat when there is fuck all in the way of evidence for this. It is just like the liquid explosives thing. It just is not plausible; these things are being dreamed up fantasist that I put in the same category as the conspiracy nutters who think that the WTC was blown up with the CIA using invisible missiles and holographic planes.

That's my take on it. He might need some sort of medical help, but there appears to be no evidence that he was capable of moving from his fantasy World into actual terrorism. Unless I've missed something.

 

[detective-boy]

It just is not plausible

Do you really mean that someone who genuinely wants to kill people, but chooses a method which would have been very difficult (or even impossible) to achieve in practice should be acquitted?

Do you not think such a person may, once discovering how difficult their initial plan was, may try something else?

 

[editor]

(my italics)
WTF! Come on

Actually, I have to say that the plan to put the bombs in limousines was quite a clever touch.

They're big, not as suspicious as vans, they can carry loads of explosives and are - I'd imagine - less likely to get stopped.

 

[detective-boy]

I think you should get a grip on the difference between truth and fiction.

As should you. The truth is that there ARE people out there intent on killing you for no other reason that you are in the UK AND that, sooner or later, they will succeed. The fiction is that there is no real threat.

 

[detective-boy]

That's my take on it. He might need some sort of medical help, but there appears to be no evidence that he was capable of moving from his fantasy World into actual terrorism. Unless I've missed something.

Er .. yes. His lack of a defence. If he was not guilty of a genuine conspiracy to commit murder he would not have pleaded guilty, his defence team would not have allowed him to plead guilty and the judge would not have accepted the plea if there were insufficient grounds on which to conclude it was genuine.

 

[Neva]

Actually, I have to say that the plan to put the bombs in limousines was quite a clever touch.

They're big, not as suspicious as vans, they can carry loads of explosives and are - I'd imagine - less likely to get stopped.

This sounds like terrorist talk to me

 

[snorbury]

I expect he'll be able to make one of these now

 

[Gavin Bl]

Actually, I have to say that the plan to put the bombs in limousines was quite a clever touch.

They're big, not as suspicious as vans, they can carry loads of explosives and are - I'd imagine - less likely to get stopped.

They also smack of western decadence, and as we know, Al Qaeda like a bit of symbolism.