Uaf Swp Lmhr Fuck Off!!!!

[audiotech]

Not true though is it. The SWP backs defend council housing fully and mostly SWP members lead it nationally and locally.

My only ever speech at the TUC concentrated on this very issue:

The voice of sanity.

 

[Groucho]

The voice of sanity.

Ni! Ni! Ni!

oh how the wibble wobbles

 

[treelover]

I have to say, a few years ago i was listening to the BBC World Service during the World Social Forum in Venezuela, I expected to perhaps hear a spokesperson for Chavez, or even Lula, better, maybe someone from the Latin American Social Movements,

but whose voice do i hear?, the whining Anglican voice of Guy Fucking Taylor of Globalise Resistance/SWP, what the fuck does he know about the global economy, the south?,


Durrutti has a point imo...


Btw, Groucho, you are quite funny for a Swappie

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I would compose a strongly-worded letter to the BBC if I were you.

 

[RedRumsBum]

Fascists who want to kill Black people DO NOT represent me or millions of Londoners.

It is absolutely right to demonstrate against them and use physical force to show that we ordinary working class people won't put up with these friends of the super-rich who want to smash the working class into the ground

How many people do you think there is, running about, who want to kill Black people?

 

[Nigel]

The leninist left is so irrelevant it does nothing to stop an alternative being built. As said most people have never heard of them. I think stalinism and social democracy might have had a tad more to do with turning people of left/socialist ideas.



I do get what you're saying I just think you totally exagerate even in the indirect influence that the SWP has.



As said in most areas the far left do not exist. It's ridiculous to blame the failures of the IWCA on the far left. Any left alternative would have an open road in most areas.

Anyone who has been involved in any political campaign, must have some understanding of how the SWP manage to sabotage it by their idiotic posturing and opportunistic politics; more interested in getting paper sales or members than running a succesful campaign and winning victories.

Elements of people who consider themselves on the left have behaved despicably in campaigns of unfounded character association & misrepresenting the views of the IWCA, if they spent more time attacking New Labour or Big Business than playing these sectarian games it might be more useful, and it is understandable why individuals like DURRUTI 02, consider them part of the enemy. After all many of their policies in the late 1970's & Early Eighties, especially in strategies around 'Municipal Socialism' are responsible for peoples attitudes the left today.

 

[DownwardDog]

I thought the title of this thread was Welsh. The subsequent discussion would have made more sense to me if it were.

 

[emanymton]

No "ordinary person" gives a shit about the SWP. You have to look pretty far and fucking wide to even find someone who knows what "SWP" stands for.

Shaun Wright-Phillips?

 

[bluestreak]

most of the working hasn't heard of most of the groups mentioned on here. except the BNP. make of that what you will... my guess is that liberals are more scared of them than they are any of those groups.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Durrito you are wasting your time, been in here too long.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You Are Making Things Worse ... The People Interested In The Bnp Already Think You Are A Bunch Of Middle Class Wankers .. Bullshit Demos When We Face Serious Issue Will Make Things Worse ..

Which people are those, then?

Do Somethig Uselfull .. Help An Old Lady Across The Road .. Help Your Neighbour With Their Shopping .. Get Involved With The Tra Or Ra .. Set Up A Food Co-op .. Campiagn For Better Kids Facilities .. Become A Mentor .. Whatfuckingever!!!!!!

just Fuck Off With Your Bullshit Anti Fascism

Some people have been saying this about the trots' appropriation of anti-fascism for decades.

 

[ViolentPanda]

How many people do you think there is, running about, who want to kill Black people?

Enough that what they now call "hate crimes" still take place across the country, and not just whites killing blacks, either.

 

[urbanrevolt]

I think durutti you're seriously out of touch on this one mate.

some of your criticisms have some validity

for example if anti-fascism is reduced to a few nosiy demonstrations without addressing the root causes of fascism you'd be right bt even then it should be posed in terms of as well as noisy militant demonstrations.

There may well be some truth to what you imply but I can only go off what I know in Oldham around 2000-2002. I know it's 6-8 years ago and I'll come back to that. But firstly we did in huge several hundred strong meetings with local people white as well as Black (probably 2/3- 3/4 Asian, some African-Caribbean and around 1/4 white people) talk about all sorts of issues. We probably didn't get to the white community as much as we should but in addition to militant antifascism- organised slef defence, community defence patrols and some noisy demonstrations in town, we did take on political arguments and after long patient ystemnaic work fascist votes have been confiened to one ward.

I may be a Trotskyist but I see no reason to have a Mcarthyite red scare tactics is prety shite really Violent Panda "trots' appropriation of anti-fascism for decades.
"

Now to th epoint are the BNP fascist? Well they firebombed an Asian house in Oldham and made various death threats. Mark Collett fantasised on the BBC about machine gunning Pakistanis coming from the mosque. Yes it was respectively 7 and 4 years ago but they're the same people in charge and surprise surprise bourgeois politicians lie, in case you hadn't noticed.

There are as Violen Panda says still racist murders (porbaly not just white people killing Black people but also targetting asylum seekers, Roma, travellers etc.)

Actually we should be for systematic work in working class communities, fights that unite, including the right of organsied self-defence against fascists and organised racists of the BNP. My partner who's Black and our friends and children would be aghast if we let the BNP meet in our fine city and would not only be extremely scared they'd be up for doing something- getting masses and masses of people to turf them out.,

Because of this you call her a middle-class wanker- that is a shit insult- she has escaped civil war, worked in all sorts of working clas sjobs and is still poud both of her skin colour and her class.

Why do you want to hurt and insult us with these pathetic insults?

 

[urbanrevolt]

She's also about th emost militant antifascist I know and her father was a revolutinary fightter but what does that matter ? You fit us into a box and label us. it's crap.

We need to get beyond these steretypes and build a militant working class antifascist movement to fight for the whole working class Black and white

Some white voters go to the BNP because non one is fighting their corner. We need to build a left capable of doing this

 

[urbanrevolt]

By the way, of course the vast majority of BNP voters are not fascists- they are voting for them out of disgust and desperation and also the BNP try to hide their fascism although they do indulge in tabloid Daily Mail style racism.

Many of the voters may be racist but people can be won from racist ideas and some may not even see themselves as racist.

But the fact that where BNP have gained footholds racist attacks have increased and the working class is divided. They offer no solution at all.

I'm hoping that no one has replied yet to these points because they're on the demo!

I'm in Manchester = so send my apologies!

 

[brasicritique]

Damaging public image - ffs. A 'New Hackney Independent' has been born.

Thank fuck you weren't responsible for the strategy to defeat the poll tax.

durruti02, think what it would do to your ego if you had as many voters, listeners or fans as Gorgeous George.

And who listens to you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in fact who listens to MC5 period. btw as i recall the name of the poll tax chnaged to council tax and the left wing newspapers went horray the same as they have done about the 10p we took it away will give it back to some but not to all if at all

dutri2 is actually talking sense okay lets see

 

[brasicritique]

As said in most areas the far left do not exist.


.

and that is due to white upper middleclass political tourists who are social elitists

it is a shame as anyone can see there is a gulf opening up between the upper middlclass and the lower classess as part of the race to the bottom i am sick of rich drop out kids attacking as the voice of revolution go and find a guru or somthing This is what you all get for being social facsists

 

[brasicritique]

anti-fascism equal white posh kids saying we know best

 

[TremulousTetra]

thanks urbanrevolt. those three posts pretty much sums up what needs to be said. God knows SW is not perfect, far from it, have made some right fuck ups, but one thing they don't do is go in for this kind of "socialists, anarchists whatever are to blame for everything" nonsense.


the emancipation of the working class supposed to be the act of the working class. socialists, the left, continually beating itself up?yes we should analyse where we made mistakes, but we cant be held responsible for the objective circumstances. the working class are the only people who can change the situation, so why aren't they? durs and others workerist attitudes are just Catholic guilt and ignoring reality.

 

[PaulOK]

...the SWP/GG left are percieved as patronising middle class pro immigrant wankers .....

My Mrs is an immigrant (P.R.China), as was my Dad (Eire) and I'm quite 'Pro' them both - Hmmm Does that make me a .....

 

[TremulousTetra]

and that is due to white upper middleclass political tourists who are social elitists

it is a shame as anyone can see there is a gulf opening up between the upper middlclass and the lower classess as part of the race to the bottom i am sick of rich drop out kids attacking as the voice of revolution go and find a guru or somthing This is what you all get for being social facsists

so why aren't you and the working class doing something about it? you really are a bunch of excuse merchants. "that tewible SW with its 2000 members is stopping us millions from organising."

 

[becky p]

You Are Making Things Worse ... The People Interested In The Bnp Already Think You Are A Bunch Of Middle Class Wankers .. Bullshit Demos When We Face Serious Issue Will Make Things Worse ..

Do Somethig Uselfull .. Help An Old Lady Across The Road .. Help Your Neighbour With Their Shopping .. Get Involved With The Tra Or Ra .. Set Up A Food Co-op .. Campiagn For Better Kids Facilities .. Become A Mentor .. Whatfuckingever!!!!!!

just Fuck Off With Your Bullshit Anti Fascism

I think your anger is totally misdirected. Do you really think the SWP are helping the BNPs growth. If so you need to articulate exactly why?
You can question the effectiveness of UAF. From your position as a supporter of the IWCA? But why not concentrate on what YOUR doing rather than picking holes in others?

 

[brasicritique]

so why aren't you and the working class doing something about it? you really are a bunch of excuse merchants. "that tewible SW with its 2000 members is stopping us millions from organising."

yeah we really have all the time and money to spare to do so all us working class people with our off shore tax havens and we take up so many colum inches in news papers making up excuses as we are so over represented within the professions and the media so much so that we should really be doing so much more we really should stop being political tourists and become really relevent to reality like the swp

 

[brasicritique]

I think your anger is totally misdirected. Do you really think the SWP are helping the BNPs growth. (

Yes they are the first thing the swp say is do not vote bnp the second thing they say is have you read this great utopian book called marx etc and way way way down the list

If so you need to articulate exactly why?
(

i think my dear that he and others have been trying to do just that personally
i think a swapie is more of a socio-pyscologicallly-constrcuted archtype which in the most part is middleclass and white by definition

You can question the effectiveness of UAF. From your position as a supporter of the IWCA? But why not concentrate on what YOUR doing rather than picking holes in others?:
(

because the left have become elitist and complacent the attitude at the moment is 'well bnp voters are only chavs we'll wave some lollypops and it will be fine in the long run'

i would say that the swp respect the left alliance have all got there heads up there own arse in fact most of the left has. my interpretation of marxism was that the proletrait were ment to be in the vangard the IWCA at least have working class memebrs lo for some reason the bigger and more powerfull of the left wing cults on these boards seem to enjoy putting them down

 

[urbanrevolt]

yeah right so the oldham united against racism never happened? Actually there the swp were only a small minority- th eonly other organised left force was workers power and we were smaller still. Probably of the activists swp made up only 10%, perhaps of the really hard workers about 30%.
The UAF has lots of problems- part of it may be is its lack of connectedness with working class communities.

But my friends, particualrly but not only Black friends, are definitely concerned about the BNP- to defeat them we need active campaigsn for the working class, community mobilisation against privatisation and housing cuts and no platform for racist BNP.

But you say on that basis my friends who are definitely working class are middle class wankers despite the fact that they are all solidly working class and proud of it as well as being proud of being antifascist and standing up for what is right. Perhaps get back to your comfortable existence where you don't expereince the dauily shit people put up with in working class communities? Or that's how it comes across- I'm alright jack!

 

[Hocus Eye.]

I don't know why anyone would think that UAF is an SWP front group. SWP members never mention UAF and I think UAF has more to do with the TUC and some big trade unions like Unison who just use it as a displacement activity in place of getting to grips with the problems of union members. While they are spending money and posters on UAF activities they cannot be building up funds for a Sustentation Fund for potential strike activity.

Members of the Labour Government were also supporters of UAF including Blunkett when he was in the Cabinet. The SWP have supported UAF but not to a greater extent than the Labour Party. In short I think the creation of the UAF was a joint creation of the Labour Party and its TUC union supporters. It was a response to fears within the Labour Party of the rise of the BNP. They were concerned about losing voters.

Similarly, people confuse the SWP with the old Respect Party. SWP invested time and money in the Respect Party which was a contender to be a Parliamentary Party. The SWP itself is not a parliamentary party nor a contender to be so. It is not the Respect Party.

 

[TremulousTetra]

yeah we really have all the time and money to spare to do so all us working class people with our off shore tax havens and we take up so many colum inches in news papers making up excuses as we are so over represented within the professions and the media so much so that we should really be doing so much more we really should stop being political tourists and become really relevent to reality like the swp

it is you, not the working class, who is an excuse merchant. you along with the anarchists etc.if it is so fucking easy, do it, instead of whining about a virtually insignificant organisation SW.

SW IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR FAILURES.

 

[butchersapron]

Lordy, did you just come in on the latest boat hocus?

 

[audiotech]

And who listens to you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in fact who listens to MC5 period.

Just had a chat with my neighbour - a big lad.

He was quite interested in what I had to say about the scum, who only last week, had burgled the flat of a young, vulnerable women, in our council block.

 

[urbanrevolt]

Lordy, did you just come in on the latest boat hocus?

perhaps an unfortunate choice of words in the context? tho' I agree that hocus does come across as slightly naive