U.S.-Iran tensions could trigger war - AP

[nino_savatte]

You people should develop some ideology, some type of shared beliefs, stand for something real.

The only thing that binds the losers of the European left together is their hatred for George W. Bush, hardly the most intellectual of positions.

I wonder who you will hate when he is gone?

"Develop some ideology"? You're a fucking card and a half, mears.

Tell me, what is the Republican ideology? Is there a homogenous, binding belief (other than selfish greed) that holds you all together? Last time I checked, neither of the two US mainstream parties had any particular ideology apart from vague notions of conservatism and liberalism. Though, truth be told, the Republicans are more conservative than the Democrats; and both are right wing parties.

Your arguments are becoming weaker with every post and appear to rely almost entirely on emotive catchphrases like "hatred". Time for you to do some reading, maybe do some proper travelling...perhaps not, I think most non-Americans would find you amusing.

 

[mears]

Mears has a fixation with a Spenglerite vision of European moral decay and population decline, and the ascendancy and hegemony of American (military, economic and moral) power, with Bush being the epitome of that power..

He entirely misses the point that it is not the puppet that has power, it is those who have their hands up the puppet's rectum.

Not sure about European moral decay, I do believe in the moral decay of the Euro left however.

As I said before the US won't always be the biggest boy on the block. CHina and India (OK and possible Russia one day) will make our unipolar world no more.

Europe will sit on the sidelines. I wonder where you will turn your anger next?

 

[nino_savatte]

Christ, the level of discussion from this fool makes a spat between a pair of 12 year-olds look positively intellectual.

 

[TAE]

You people should develop some ideology, some type of shared beliefs, stand for something real.

The only thing that binds the losers of the European left together is their hatred for George W. Bush, hardly the most intellectual of positions.

I wonder who you will hate when he is gone?

Tell me more about Micky and Minni.

 

[8ball]

So if not Bush, who really wields the power in the US?

The neocon faction in the White House and their various military and business concerns hold most of the cards.

You must know this. . . ?

 

[ViolentPanda]

The neocon faction in the White House and their various military and business concerns hold most of the cards.

You must know this. . . ?

Two words. Cognitive dissonance.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Christ, the level of discussion from this fool makes a spat between a pair of 12 year-olds look positively intellectual.

He's using the same old "you must hate us/you're resent us" bull to figleaf his lack of comprehension as to how anyone could possibly disagree with him.

Why would I, or any other half-bright person, waste energy hating something they can't change (like US foreign policy), when they could use the energy to critique the witterings of those who blindly support those policies instead? Which makes the most sense; to help the odd brainwashing victim to see the light, or to rail in a futile manner against a monolith?

 

[friedaweed]

Do retarded people fly jets?

When you have the best military in the world you use it a leverage. It would be utterly retarded not to do so.

Fragging anyone? Friendly fire? Fucked up Iraq
Funny as Fuck Mears, funny as fuck
All bravado all of the time

 

[Yossarian]

Bush is the most powerful man in the world and thats just the way it is.

Bush is a lame duck with a Senate and Congress against him, he's not the most powerful man in the world and soon he won't even be the most powerful man (or woman) in the US.

 

[Yossarian]

Christ, the level of discussion from this fool makes a spat between a pair of 12 year-olds look positively intellectual.

Yep – mears seems to be getting an ego boost from telling everybody what a powerful country the USA is, as if that somehow made *him* a powerful or relevant individual.

 

[newharper]

But the Euro left believes in nothing but taking the opposite stance of George W. Bush.

And when he is out of office you all will be back in the wilderness.

That is only, truly, part of your self-obsession.

 

[newharper]

Mears, that you think your military can slaughter our servicemen,
which you do on an irregular basis, but then refuse to 'perform' under our law, or even contemplate international law, is gobsmacking.

Maybe she was naive to expect the truth. Four years after being killed by an American pilot, Mandy Hull has still to discover why her son was shot by US forces one morning in Iraq. As she left Oxford coroners court shortly before midday last Friday, she wept briefly. Her sense of betrayal had never felt keener.

The British government had, she suspected, misled her. The Pentagon had point-blank refused to even identify the American servicemen who shot her 25-year-old son. Her only son. 'It makes you sick,' she said.

The refusal of American authorities to discipline US servicemen who have killed British troops bolsters a perception among UK soldiers that the Pentagon has little regard for the sacrifices made by the British army in its support of the US-led coalition.

Hull's widow, Susan, was 'categorically' informed that no recorded footage from the cockpit of the two A-10 aircraft from which the shots killing her husband were fired was available. Then, unexpectedly, the tape arrived at the coroner's court last Thursday. Only then did it emerge that the MoD might have known about the vital evidence for years. It was the moment that relations between the US and UK over the treatment of British soldiers mistakenly killed by US servicemen began to unravel. Senior British defence officials asked the US authorities to declassify the cockpit recordings so its allegedly 'incriminating' footage could be screened at the inquest. The Pentagon refused, a reaction that surprised no one who has monitored its attitude towards Britain's inquest system

For his courage Finney was awarded the George Cross - its youngest military recipient. He could not be awarded the Victoria Cross, as it is given only for bravery in the face of the enemy. The US pilots were friends.

Does that make you feel proud Mears.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,2005666,00.html

 

[Bernie Gunther]

As the pair looked at the British convoy, POPOV36 said twice that he thought he could see orange panels on the vehicles - an indication of coalition forces - before deciding they were likely to be Iraqi rocket launchers.

The pilot then fired without waiting for full permission from US air controllers, while POPOV35 said: "Get him, get him."

POPOV36 then apparently saw wounded soldiers being dragged from the burning vehicles: "It looks like he is hauling arse. Ha ha."

The pilots were then told by ground controllers that there were friendly light tanks in area, prompting a volley of swearing.

They asked another ground controller about the fate of the convoy and were told one person was dead and another had been injured.

"I'm going to be sick," POPOV35 said, while his colleague swore again and made a crying sound.

"Did you hear?" asked POPOV 35, and got the reply: "Yeah, this sucks". POPOV 35 then said: "We're in jail, dude."

source

 

[slaar]

They've even got a senior US military officer off the record saying that the tape should be released as the pilots / procedures followed were an absolute disgrace.

Meanwhile a senior Iranian diplomat has been kidnapped in Baghdad and the Iranians are saying they hold the Americans responsible.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6334439.stm

 

[8ball]

Meanwhile a senior Iranian diplomat has been kidnapped in Baghdad and the Iranians are saying they hold the Americans responsible.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6334439.stm

Oh arse.

Is there any way the Yanks could fuck this all up any bigger?

 

[slaar]

Inquest to go ahead

Excellent:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article1339175.ece

The video had previously been classified by US military, which led Andrew Walker, the Oxfordshire deputy coroner, to indicate last Friday he could not reach a conclusion in the inquest as vital information was missing.

But today Geoff Webb, the coroner's officer in Oxfordshire, where the inquest is taking place, told the Times Online that - now the recording had been placed in the public domain - it was not necessary to wait for the US to officially declassify it, and the inquest could go ahead as planned. It is due to re-start on March 12.

 

[TAE]

As the pair looked at the British convoy, POPOV36 said twice that he thought he could see orange panels on the vehicles - an indication of coalition forces - before deciding they were likely to be Iraqi rocket launchers.

The pilot then fired without waiting for full permission from US air controllers, while POPOV35 said: "Get him, get him."

POPOV36 then apparently saw wounded soldiers being dragged from the burning vehicles: "It looks like he is hauling arse. Ha ha."

The pilots were then told by ground controllers that there were friendly light tanks in area, prompting a volley of swearing.

They asked another ground controller about the fate of the convoy and were told one person was dead and another had been injured.

"I'm going to be sick," POPOV35 said, while his colleague swore again and made a crying sound.

"Did you hear?" asked POPOV 35, and got the reply: "Yeah, this sucks". POPOV 35 then said: "We're in jail, dude."

The article now reads very differently from what you quoted :

As the pair looked at the British convoy, POPOV36 said twice that he thought he could see orange panels on the vehicles, an indication of coalition forces.

But after a ground controller assured the pilots they were "well clear of friendlies", POPOV36 decided the orange panels were most likely rocket launchers and [no mention of authorisation lacking] opened fire, with his colleague saying: "Get him, get him."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,2006879,00.html

 

[fela fan]

Oh arse.

Is there any way the Yanks could fuck this all up any bigger?

I'm not really sure that they do fuck things up.

'Friendly fire' is an extremely weird term to be using. Is it really a coincidence that it's the US that are most known for this phenomenon? The nation just happens to be a gun-trigger happy country. They're into guns, and their soldiers kill the friends as well as the enemies, and their citizens kill their families and close friends as well as murdering strangers.

They just have a different attitude towards death and stuff.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm not really sure that they do fuck things up.

'Friendly fire' is an extremely weird term to be using. Is it really a coincidence that it's the US that are most known for this phenomenon? The nation just happens to be a gun-trigger happy country. They're into guns, and their soldiers kill the friends as well as the enemies, and their citizens kill their families and close friends as well as murdering strangers.

They just have a different attitude towards death and stuff.

"Friendly fire" can happen to anyone, although I would agree that the US forces seem rather accomplished at it. That's more to do with the way they train and indoctrinate their military forces than it is to some kind of cult of death brought about by close proximity to firearms though, IMO.

 

[TAE]

Meanwhile a senior Iranian diplomat has been kidnapped in Baghdad and the Iranians are saying they hold the Americans responsible.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6334439.stm

This is rather odd:

An Iraqi government official told Associated Press news agency there had been a gun battle and a chase after the kidnapping but the car carrying the diplomat escaped.

Some men were captured but the New York Times quoted Iraqi officials as saying they had legitimate defence ministry identification.

An official told the paper the men may have kept the identification after being dismissed. It is not thought they are still being held.

They had legitimate defence ministry identification and they were let go?

 

[slaar]

Presumably they were released because they could "prove" they were MoD staff.

 

[TAE]

Yes, but what does that say about who the kidnappers were?

Does that not mean the kidnappers were offical Iraqi security forces?

 

[slaar]

Yes, but what does that say about who the kidnappers were?

Does that not mean the kidnappers were offical Iraqi security forces?

But things in Baghdad are so confused now, any random gang could have fake ID, get out of a charged situation by blagging it then get away.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Sure, particularly since geniune Iraqi government ID is probably available to whatever bunch of death-squad goons or other paramilitaries either the US or some faction within the Iraqi government chooses to employ.

 

[fela fan]

"Friendly fire" can happen to anyone, although I would agree that the US forces seem rather accomplished at it. That's more to do with the way they train and indoctrinate their military forces than it is to some kind of cult of death brought about by close proximity to firearms though, IMO.

Could be mate, but it also seems to me that the indoctrination already began from society before they joined the forces. There's a culture of killing in the US, and there's no getting away from that at all.

 

[nino_savatte]

Could be mate, but it also seems to me that the indoctrination already began from society before they joined the forces. There's a culture of killing in the US, and there's no getting away from that at all.

I'm not so sure about society indoctrinating those folk in the military. I would suggest, and to use the Althusserian model, that it is the ideological arm of the state that does the indoctrination. By ideological arm, I am referring to the Ideological State Apparatus: school, the Church (though its influence these days is almost negligable in terms of convincing people to go to war) and political parties (and their representatives in the media). Society tends to have things forced upon it from the top...unless you happen to be a member of the ruling class, of course.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Could be mate, but it also seems to me that the indoctrination already began from society before they joined the forces. There's a culture of killing in the US, and there's no getting away from that at all.

Mmmm. I think you're conflating a society-wide attitude toward the cheapness of life (at least that of other people), with a military training system whose primary aim is to depersonalise the recruit through breaking down his ego and subsuming it to that of his military unit and to demonise the enemy through inculcating into the recruit the attitude that the enemy is sub-human, is deserving of death, and that the enemy's death serves a high moral purpose and further elevates the killer above his enemy.
The two attitudes are similar, but have different roots, imo.

 

[fela fan]

But surely that's the point. If society is that way inclined in the first place, so much the easier for those in the military with all the weapons to abuse them.

To me there's a link between the cheapness afforded to life in general in a society and the resultant amount of friendly fire by that society's military.

But i can't really argue against what you've said re training of military recruits. But isn't their mind that way inclined in the first place?

 

[nino_savatte]

I should have mentioned this before: the military form part of the Repressive State Apparatus along with the police. Any recruit to either of these branches of the RSA have to be indoctrinated in order to fully carry out their orders from the state.

 

[fela fan]

I should have mentioned this before: the military form part of the Repressive State Apparatus along with the police. Any recruit to either of these branches of the RSA have to be indoctrinated in order to fully carry out their orders from the state.

That's interesting! I'm a bit too tired to delve into this now, but how does that explain the huge amounts of friendly fire they indulge in compared to any other nation? On the face of it it would seem to support my intuition that it might not be so accidental, an intuition i'm not entirely sure is right i might add.

To add: do CIA recruits get the same level of indoctrination?