Two State Solution will Lengthen the Conflict

[Ibn Khaldoun]

I think the success of any solution is contingent upon the conditions that make it possible. That's why I don't reject the two state or the bi-national state.

At the moment, the one/bi-national state looks more likely, but anything can happen.

 

[Giles]

Sure, but racist South Africans might have said the same before apartheid ended.

Maybe so - but I'll bet that Israelis simply will not vote for this - so it is unlikely to happen. I must say, if I was in their shoes, I wouldn't vote to give up my own country to a longstanding enemy. Turkeys don't vote for Christmas, as they say!

Giles..

 

[Jeff Robinson]

The Israeli government are fucking ccunts.

 

[Bunjaj Pali]

Israel is allergic to giving up their possession of Jerusalem and so we will have to wait until they work out that a one-state solution with freedom of movement for all is the best they can do - unless they want to start killing the Palestinians in their millions.

They need to recognise that the two-state solution will never solve anything and that that only leaves the one-state solution. The Palestinians exist and unless they are prepared to take the Hitler option they will remain existing, and will remain in conflict while Jerusalem is out of bounds.

Why is it though that people feel the need to use such inflammatory and unhelpful language? Believe me I am no defender of Zionism, but no Israeli politician, however cuntish, has ever talked about "killing the Palestinians in their millions" as an alternative to a one-state solution.

We all know how the Zionists have hijacked the issue by associating all criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism but when I look at some of the comments on this thread I can almost see where they're coming from. We've had a references to the final solution, the "Hitler option" (whatever the fuck that means), Killing millions and genocide. We do not see these terms being used with regard to the Russians in Chechnya, the Indians in Kashmir, the Chinese in Tibet etc, all occupying forces with worse records on human rights. I don't think it's anti-Semitism but I do think it's a cheap and lazy analogy that springs to mind more readily because the occupiers in this case are Jews.

 

[Gmart]

Why is it though that people feel the need to use such inflammatory and unhelpful language? Believe me I am no defender of Zionism, but no Israeli politician, however cuntish, has ever talked about "killing the Palestinians in their millions" as an alternative to a one-state solution.

We all know how the Zionists have hijacked the issue by associating all criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism but when I look at some of the comments on this thread I can almost see where they're coming from. We've had a references to the final solution, the "Hitler option" (whatever the fuck that means), Killing millions and genocide. We do not see these terms being used with regard to the Russians in Chechnya, the Indians in Kashmir, the Chinese in Tibet etc, all occupying forces with worse records on human rights. I don't think it's anti-Semitism but I do think it's a cheap and lazy analogy that springs to mind more readily because the occupiers in this case are Jews.

With all due respect - the difference is that in the examples you give: the Russians in Chechnya, the Indians in Kashmir, the Chinese in Tibet, the Russians are NOT creating an area for themselves where they have control over all the resources while herding the Chechens into the worst areas with no freedom of movement within Chechnya - the same goes for the Indians in Kashmir and the Tibetans in Tibet.

I think it is YOUR laziness which fails to recognise this difference.

They are deliberately preventing supplies from reaching the Palestinian areas.

I use the phrase the 'Hitler' option because it is a dramatic description of the policy as is. The Israelis want the Palestinians to have their own state (they say), but want ALL the land for themselves - actions speak louder than words - their actions show that they simply want them all to disappear, they don't want to give them anything because this would be compromise and it is compromise which they refuse to consider. I am simply pointing out that they only have three choices:

1) Compromise. Accept the Palestinians exist and find a way to live with them while giving them a chance to live a productive life. This means making it possible to live rather than throwing them off more and more land, etc. Creating more 'freedom fighters' at the same time.

2) The Hitler option - kill them all - end of problem.

3) Stick their fingers in their ears and sing "La la la" while ignoring the evidence and the arguments from others in the hope that no one outside the area will actually DO anything to stop their actions.

They have chosen option three - and it remains to be seen if the rest of the world will sit by and allow them to get away with what is a crime against humanity.

This is not to excuse the other conflicts you mention, but the Israelis INVADED the land while the world wasn't looking and continue to maintain a state which discriminates against the people there who were born there. The Chinese , Russians and Indians all have a certain amount of blood on their hands but in all three cases the people are living side by side and even tho there is discrimination it is not on the same scale.

 

[Nigel]

SMASH ZIONISM SMASH *SRAEL
SMASH ZIONISM SMASH *SRAEL
SMASH ZIONISM SMASH *SRAEL
SMASH ZIONISM SMASH *SRAEL

 

[Giles]

SMASH ZIONISM SMASH *SRAEL
SMASH ZIONISM SMASH *SRAEL
SMASH ZIONISM SMASH *SRAEL
SMASH ZIONISM SMASH *SRAEL

That's certainly a strongly-held point of view there!

Who is likely to "smash" Israel, without Israel nuking them in return, though?

Giles..

 

[Bunjaj Pali]

I use the phrase the 'Hitler' option because it is a dramatic description of the policy as is. The Israelis want the Palestinians to have their own state (they say), but want ALL the land for themselves - actions speak louder than words - their actions show that they simply want them all to disappear, they don't want to give them anything because this would be compromise and it is compromise which they refuse to consider. I am simply pointing out that they only have three choices:

1) Compromise. Accept the Palestinians exist and find a way to live with them while giving them a chance to live a productive life. This means making it possible to live rather than throwing them off more and more land, etc. Creating more 'freedom fighters' at the same time.

2) The Hitler option - kill them all - end of problem.

3) Stick their fingers in their ears and sing "La la la" while ignoring the evidence and the arguments from others in the hope that no one outside the area will actually DO anything to stop their actions.

They have chosen option three - and it remains to be seen if the rest of the world will sit by and allow them to get away with what is a crime against humanity.

But you're still using unneccesarily inflammatory language. The three "options" you talk of aren't really equally viable options that the Israeli govt are considering in turn, you just made one of them up. I might equally say the British govt has 3 options in Afghanistan:

1) withdraw completely
2) negotiate with the Taliban
3) kill every single Afghani in the land

but it doesn't make it accurate. You use the term "Hitler option" because it has a greater resonance since you are talking about Jews.

 

[Bunjaj Pali]

SMASH ZIONISM SMASH *SRAEL
SMASH ZIONISM SMASH *SRAEL
SMASH ZIONISM SMASH *SRAEL
SMASH ZIONISM SMASH *SRAEL

Thanks Nige

 

[Gmart]

But you're still using unneccesarily inflammatory language. The three "options" you talk of aren't really equally viable options that the Israeli govt are considering in turn, you just made one of them up. I might equally say the British govt has 3 options in Afghanistan:

1) withdraw completely
2) negotiate with the Taliban
3) kill every single Afghani in the land

but it doesn't make it accurate. You use the term "Hitler option" because it has a greater resonance since you are talking about Jews.

Hardly - the difference is that every action of the Israelis government suggests that they wish that the Palestinians didn't exist. The Allied forces in Afghanistan or Iraq are not, for example, walling the Afghans or Iraqis into a specific area and then preventing supplies from being allowed in.

I am indeed using dramatic language, but that is because the Israelis actions are very similar to Hitler's. They are discriminating against the Palestinians as a whole race, and putting them in these huge camps (areas) where they deliberately restrict their diet to the bare minimum.

is a youtube video about how the wall has separated the Palestinians.

And is another which shows how the Israelis are taking control of water resources from the Palestinians to force them from the land.

In neither case could these be compared to Afghanistan or Iraq, and it would be facile and erroneous to do so. In both cases, even if allowing for a bias from the source - there is obviously an issue which is not being resolved.

Now I am fine with the Israelis invading Palestine - history is gone and there is no use going back - but the evidence suggests that the invasion is ongoing and that they have no interest in a Palestinian state, only in pushing the Palestinians onto less and less land. Turning a blind eye to this abuse will not solve it - the Palestinians are weak, but their resentment will last and they may not be weak forever. I would suggest that Israel compromises while they can...

 

[Gmart]

An article about the EU and their support for East Jerusalem to be the capital of a Palestinian State - something which the Israelis refuse to consider.

But then again the Israelis refuse to consider a Palestinian State with weapons of any sort, so their position is confusing to say the least.

 

[Gmart]

And now the Israelis are campaigning against their government because they dared to slow the building in the West Bank (see here).

The BBC's Paul Wood in Jerusalem says the settlers feel betrayed by a government they thought was on their side.
Israel could just be acting tactically, trying to make the Palestinians look like the roadblock to negotiations, our correspondent says.
But even so, he adds, the Israeli government may have to choose between peace with the Palestinians or peace with the settlers.

 

[Gmart]

Here and here are the two parts of the guardian article comparing the Israelis-Palestinian situation to the Apartheid in South Africa:

"Apartheid was an extension of the colonial project to dispossess people of their land," said the Jewish South African cabinet minister and former ANC guerrilla, Ronnie Kasrils, on a visit to Jerusalem. "That is exactly what has happened in Israel and the occupied territories; the use of force and the law to take the land. That is what apartheid and Israel have in common."

While here is a Dispatches documentary on the British Israel Lobby in Westminster.

 

[oztpo4]

SMASH ZIONISM SMASH *SRAEL
SMASH ZIONISM SMASH *SRAEL
SMASH ZIONISM SMASH *SRAEL
SMASH ZIONISM SMASH *SRAEL

blimey - that's mature.

 

[Bunjaj Pali]

And now the Israelis are campaigning against their government because they dared to slow the building in the West Bank (see here).

That's the settlers - extremist racist fanatics who are the biggest obstacle to peace in Israel. Nothing at all surprising about their protest. They do not however speak for the majority of Israelis (although, unfortunately, their influence is getting stronger, largely through demographics)

 

[Bunjaj Pali]

While here is a Dispatches documentary on the British Israel Lobby in Westminster.

Yep, saw it. Yawn. Complete non-entity of a documentary, raising the familiar spectre of the insidious Zionist influence in the corridors of power, quietly ingnoring the fact that almost every Western country has a strong lobby in the UK that tries to influence the political decision making process in its favour.

 

[Bunjaj Pali]

And now the Israelis are campaigning against their government because they dared to slow the building in the West Bank.

Here is a link to an Israeli peace movement, holding a demonstration tomorrow night in Tel Aviv against the settlements and against the Gaza blockade.

There is a diversity of opinion in Israel. Perhaps you could be a little more accurate in your description of protesters in the future.

 

[Random]

With all due respect - the difference is that in the examples you give: the Russians in Chechnya, the Indians in Kashmir, the Chinese in Tibet, the Russians are NOT creating an area for themselves where they have control over all the resources while herding the Chechens into the worst areas with no freedom of movement within Chechnya - the same goes for the Indians in Kashmir and the Tibetans in Tibet.

Blimey, you really think that the situation in Chechnya - where a generation of young men have been wiped out by the Russians - is less bad than the situation in the occupied palestinian territories? What are you smoking? Bunjaj Pali is right, you're applying double standards and using language that is not going to help the situation at all.

 

[Gmart]

Blimey, you really think that the situation in Chechnya - where a generation of young men have been wiped out by the Russians - is less bad than the situation in the occupied palestinian territories? What are you smoking? Bunjaj Pali is right, you're applying double standards and using language that is not going to help the situation at all.

I said it was different because, as you quoted from my own post:

the Russians are NOT creating an area for themselves where they have control over all the resources while herding the Chechens into the worst areas with no freedom of movement within Chechnya

This does NOT mean that I am in some way supporting the Russians actions there.

I appreciate that there is a peace movement and I applaud its efforts. I am sorry if you thought I didn't - I was under the impression that I was arguing for peace myself.

How do you see peace breaking out? Do you still feel that there is hope for the two state solution?

I feel that the only solution is for a one state solution where Israel gives up its 'one true race' attitude, ignoring the many Palestinians who were born on the land they claim, and where the Palestinians accept the invasion which has occurred and live as equal citizens with the Israelis.

This is highly unlikely, but it is the only route I can see to true peace, rather than a two state solution which would only lengthen the conflict.

And the settlers obviously hold too much power in Israel - they should be stamped down on hard, and the freeze on settlements should be immediate.

 

[Bunjaj Pali]

And the settlers obviously hold too much power in Israel - they should be stamped down on hard, and the freeze on settlements should be immediate.

Absolutely. They are scum of the highest order. One of the most worrying trends in Israel is that more and more young secular Israelis are avoiding the draft, which in itself is a good thing, the downside however is that the vacuum is being filled by settlers, so the religious right are having an increasing influence in the military.

I too would like to see a one state solution but unfortunately the situation has deteriorated to such an extent that all but a tiny minority of both Israelis and Palestinians reject it. A two state solution is the best anyone can hope for at present, and even that, sadly, seems further away than ever due to the intransigence and stupidity of the current Israeli government.

 

[goldenecitrone]

SMASH ZIONISM SMASH *SRAEL
SMASH ZIONISM SMASH *SRAEL
SMASH ZIONISM SMASH *SRAEL
SMASH ZIONISM SMASH *SRAEL

The rage of the impotent.

 

[Random]

How do you see peace breaking out? Do you still feel that there is hope for the two state solution?

I feel that the only solution is for a one state solution where Israel gives up its 'one true race' attitude, ignoring the many Palestinians who were born on the land they claim, and where the Palestinians accept the invasion which has occurred and live as equal citizens with the Israelis.

In the long term the prospects for Israel do not look good, considering the decline of the US. The only real way forward, for Israelis and palestinians, is for the Israeli peace opposition, plus international opposition, plus the Palestinian movements, to impose a peace of some kind on the Israeli political and military elite. Whether it called a two or a one state solution is pretty meaningless - what is important is the amount of real freedom that Palestinians end up with.

What we have to understand, however, isn the seige mentality of many Israelis and the fact that the violence of their state is largely legitimised by a feeling of deep regional and international isolation - so singling them out for unusual hyperbole, and verging on the antisemitic by calling Israelis nazis and little hitlers only serves, in fact, to support the isreali military-political elite's policy of fear, by which they hope to keep their population in line.