Two dead in NI shooting

[dennisr]

They should just accept the status quo, eg?

Fucking bog hoppers, don't know their place.

its tactical idiocy. sets back the opportunity the ni working class have of moving beyond sectarian politics.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Shocking, fuck knows why this has happened now - perhaps its linked to this?

The leopard's spots are permanent, once a murdering thug, always a murdering thug.

If there was nothing being plotted, there would be no need for external help on intel gathering.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Aahh so that makes it OK to shoot a few dozern micks, eh? Fuck them, they had it coming. They should know better by now, eh?

Nice edit but it was in BBC news.

You're an idiot TL that is why you are largely ignored.

Would you care to state your view on this plainly?

 

[ViolentPanda]

armchair academic warriors....

And you're...?
Has anyone claimed responsibility, or are you just assuming that this is the RIRA's responsibility?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Good !

No. Very very bad, especially given the political establishment's pro-Loyalist bias.

 

[Herbert Read]

Would you care to state your view on this plainly?

Certainly.

- The whole thing is a sorry state of affairs that won't be fixed within 12 years of Mo's peace agreement. Wounds are still open. People's experience of the Ireland and their troubles is via the BBC news for fuck sake. (IIRC you served there, Sas).

- There is no proof that the Real IRA were involved in this shooting (that I am away of).

- The presence of British special forces will only result in more anger; from both sides.

- Opinions such as those expressed by treelover are at their best simplistic and foolish, at their worse they're a catalyst.

- Supposing it was the RIRA calling them murdering scum is belittling the conflict for both sides.

 

[Herbert Read]

No. Very very bad, especially given the political establishment's pro-Loyalist bias.

I wasn't going to bother replying but thank you.

 

[treelover]

As someone on CIF has just said, it's now time to ditch the mythology that powers much of the dissident ideology, such as it , and gives them even a smidgen of credibility: apparently the blog of the junior branch of Sinn Fein has a link to the 'Loughgall Martyrs' website commorating the deaths of a team of PIRA Volunteers who did exactly the same kind of attacks as those yesterday. Time to kill the beasts of history, not squaddies.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The leopard's spots are permanent, once a murdering thug, always a murdering thug.

If there was nothing being plotted, there would be no need for external help on intel gathering.

Me, I'm wondering who has most to gain from the shit this will stir up, and it doesn't seem to be Irish republicanism, at the moment. As Idris says, this could be a massive own goal, but there's at least the possibility that this is a provocateur operation by other players.

 

[treelover]

Supposing it was the RIRA calling them murdering scum is belittling the conflict for both sides.

so, you think the Real IRA have some sort of legitimacy, well, outside of some tiny left wing circles and few nutters in NI and the Rep, they don't!

 

[Herbert Read]

so, you think the Real IRA have some sort of legitimacy, well, outside of some tiny left wing circles and few nutters in NI and the Rep, they don't!

No. Do you always see things in polar opposites with no shades of grey, newlybittersweet?

Also whilst you answering that question, could you please tell me where the RIRA involvement was in this incident.

Thanks.

 

[Sasaferrato]

It's not that simple. The provisions of the GFA marked a decisive break with both direct rule and the Stormont regime that preceded it. The days of 'croppies lie down' are gone, never to return, and that makes this double murder even more worthy of condemnation. There is ultimately no alternative to reunification BY CONSENT AND ONLY BY CONSENT, but this attack does nothing to assist that process.

And for what it's worth - as an Irish bog hopper myself - I condemn this attack unreservedly. Not only that, but I predict that it will have no large or lasting effect on the course Northern Ireland is set on.

For one thing, Gerry and Martin enjoy the fruits of power to let some fundie splitter undermine them. Dissident republicans in nationalist communities are going to be feeling the heat from now on. . .

One can only hope that you are right.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Me, I'm wondering who has most to gain from the shit this will stir up, and it doesn't seem to be Irish republicanism, at the moment. As Idris says, this could be a massive own goal, but there's at least the possibility that this is a provocateur operation by other players.

One thing that my time in NI did teach me, was that things are rarely what they seem at first glance.

I await the response to this with interest.

 

[laptop]

There should be an end to actions like the one in Antrim last night. Sinn Fein has a responsibility to be consistent. The logic of this is that we support the police in the apprehension of those involved in last night's attack.

A very, very significant statement; given how policing issues have held up (and been used to hold up) the political process.

More significant than the attack itself...

 

[ViolentPanda]

I wasn't going to bother replying but thank you.

No problem. I get pissed off when people cheer-lead for what, in NI, have historically been death squads, especially given the SAS's history in the six counties.

 

[ViolentPanda]

so, you think the Real IRA have some sort of legitimacy, well, outside of some tiny left wing circles and few nutters in NI and the Rep, they don't!

You miss the point. Stop making sweeping statements based on your own prejudices and on assumptions, eh?

 

[ViolentPanda]

One thing that my time in NI did teach me, was that things are rarely what they seem at first glance.

Same here.
To me it just seems plain stupid to assume we can "know" what happened until there's some evidence to base it on. Jumping to the conclusion that the RIRA must have been involved misses the point that there are other "actors" who might benefit from the shit hitting the fan.

 

[Herbert Read]

One thing that my time in NI did teach me, was that things are rarely what they seem at first glance.

Precisely. Which is why when I see the likes of treelover pigeon holing everything, I get annoyed.

 

[likesfish]

Its the rira or I can't belive its not the Ra or whatever
British state wants shot of NI if it could get rid of it without a bloodbath it would. proddy armed nutters seem more into "performance art these days" thank god unfortunartly I would'nt be suprised if a lone catholic gets killed next week

this is some warped version of the sealed knot the troubles reanactment society. Yes the gfa isn't perfect theres still massive work to be done
in the North but its political work talking too the two communities compromise and understanding not running around with a balaclava and a gun

 

[Sasaferrato]

Certainly.

- The whole thing is a sorry state of affairs that won't be fixed within 12 years of Mo's peace agreement. Wounds are still open. People's experience of the Ireland and their troubles is via the BBC news for fuck sake. (IIRC you served there, Sas).

- There is no proof that the Real IRA were involved in this shooting (that I am away of).

- The presence of British special forces will only result in more anger; from both sides.

- Opinions such as those expressed by treelover are at their best simplistic and foolish, at their worse they're a catalyst.

- Supposing it was the RIRA calling them murdering scum is belittling the conflict for both sides.

Murdering scum is more than fair comment.

The people of NI are in the process of forming a united community, albeit it slowly. The restoration of what anyone would regard as a return to a normal way of life helps with this, i.e. no bombs, no shootings.

Yes, amongst others on the boards, I did serve in NI, and had friends and comrades killed and wounded.

In my opinion, this will not cause a flare up, the army will swallow this ( publically ), whilst tracking down those who did it, and very probably bringing them into court.

Personally, I would track them down and kill them.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Its the rira or I can't belive its not the Ra or whatever
British state wants shot of NI if it could get rid of it without a bloodbath it would. proddy armed nutters seem more into "performance art these days" thank god unfortunartly I would'nt be suprised if a lone catholic gets killed next week

this is some warped version of the sealed knot the troubles reanactment society. Yes the gfa isn't perfect theres still massive work to be done
in the North but its political work talking too the two communities compromise and understanding not running around with a balaclava and a gun

Not the answer. If the peace process is to continue to flourish, Protestants killing Catholics on behalf of the army is not helpful, or required.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Same here.
To me it just seems plain stupid to assume we can "know" what happened until there's some evidence to base it on. Jumping to the conclusion that the RIRA must have been involved misses the point that there are other "actors" who might benefit from the shit hitting the fan.

All one can say, is that two soldiers have been murdered, and a number of other people, including innocent civilians, wounded. No more, no less.

 

[laptop]

the point that there are other "actors" who might benefit from the shit hitting the fan.

But let's list them:

• The Troubles Re-Enactment Society - it's what they're for;
• Rejectionist "loyalists" - do have most to lose from the peace process progressing, but would have to get over taboo on attacking the British State and would have to be even more stupid than they've already shown themselves, esp. since Adams's reaction moves the peace process forward;
• The British State - presumes that the whole peace process is a lie and the State secretly wants eternal conflict, Israel-stylee;
• Rogue elements of British forces - unless it was all a hideous cover-up for a cuckold's revenge, hard to fathom a motive, unless there's a faction wanting eternal conflict...
• PSNI - are their budget problems that bad that they'd face the risk of being found out and banged up en masse?
• The Scientologists - an opportunity to show up offering "grief counselling".

Has to be the Scientologists, then.

 

[ethel]

it's the lizards

 

[Kaka Tim]

if this was a republican splinter group its an almost unbelivalbly fuckwitted thing to do. What do they hope to achive? Troops back on the streets and catholic doors being booted in and people dragged off to a new H-block? Road blocs and sectarian shootings? The like of the UFF and UDA tooling themselves up again? What possible adavantage do they think will secure for the nationalist community?

The peace process is flawed - especailly in that its instiutionalised segregation - but it a massive improvement on what went before.

I spend a fair but of time in NI last year and everybody I met (from both communtities) are accepting the concessions they have had to make because they can now get on with living normal lives without self -mythologising gangsters and squaddies sticking guns in their faces.

 

[Herbert Read]

All one can say, is that two soldiers have been murdered, and a number of other people, including innocent civilians, wounded. No more, no less.

And how many people have the British murdered over the decades indirectly or otherwise?

I go to Sligo in July for a couple of weeks. Each time I go there security seems to be a bit tighter than the last time. (Reminds me, do I need a dog passport to take a dog to Ireland? Goes off to google.)

 

[Goodgod]

Soldiers were killed execution-style as they lay on ground in Ulster attack...

[URL="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5867499.ece"]>>>Click<<<[/URL]

 

[Sasaferrato]

And how many people have the British murdered over the decades indirectly or otherwise?

I go to Sligo in July for a couple of weeks. Each time I go there security seems to be a bit tighter than the last time. (Reminds me, do I need a dog passport to take a dog to Ireland? Goes off to google.)

Murdered? A somewhat biased question.

I guess that we would have been on different sides in NI, me on the side of law and order, you on the side of the murdering scum.

 

[Herbert Read]

No more biased than yourself, Sas.

I believe that a Shoot to kill policy is murder. That is now law and order.

Loughgall, Strabane et al... premeditated state sanctioned murder. I don't blame the soliders, they are merely "whores of the empire" (The Pogues), they exist so "men in bowler hats can look the other way" (Thatcher).

 

[Herbert Read]

I would like to stress that I do not have any resentment for the soldiers who served in Ireland only the British government.