Two arrested for terrorism at Notts Uni

[detective-boy]

It is obviously a witch hunt with a very different background and intention.

A very definite conclusion to draw, bearing in mind that (a) you do not know the facts in detail and (b) you appear to be drawing it on the basis of "stands to reason", subjectively applying your mindset to the few facts you do know ...

But, hey, don't want to suggest you're stereotyping there or anything ...

 

[Aldebaran]

A very definite conclusion to draw, bearing in mind that (a) you do not know the facts in detail and (b) you appear to be drawing it on the basis of "stands to reason", subjectively applying your mindset to the few facts you do know ...

But, hey, don't want to suggest you're stereotyping there or anything ...

Of course I go along with my interpretation, but no, I'm not stereotyping.

salaam.

 

[newbie]

Loving the lazy, knee-jerk, cliche there ...

I would suggest that what links those three entirely separate incidents together (the pattern) is that there is nothing to indicate that any of the people involved actually did anything at all, except think, read or write. Maybe using the term 'thought crime' is a cliche, but if so it's because it's a form of words everyone understands because of its clarity.

You are, of course, at liberty to justify why a free society should treat people the way those young people have been treated, simply for their choice of reading.

 

[Das Uberdog]

And, if you can't, just shut the fuck up, eh?

Crikey - the law get uppity when they're crossed...

If this was us meeting whilst you were on the beat, and I'd questioned you randomly harrassing someone, would I have my arm twisted round my back, splayed over the bonnet of your car by now?

 

[detective-boy]

I would suggest that what links those three entirely separate incidents together (the pattern) is that there is nothing to indicate that any of the people involved actually did anything at all, except think, read or write.

The point is that in the other two cases (and every other case which has resulted in charges) they HAVE done something more - there is a context to what they have read or written.

Let's assume that there is a real terrorist cell planning a re-run of 7 July. At some stage of their planning the situation if anyone intervenes will be as it is in these cases. Are you really saying we should be unable to intervene at that stage and have to allow them to run, with all the risks of things not being as we suspect them to be from the imperfect information of our surveillance, until they actually have some explosives or have killed dozens of people (and possibly themselves)?

This case, I acknowledge, appears different than the other two but, so far as I am aware, all that has happened is an investigation. Are you saying that it is even wrong to investigate when suspicions exist?

 

[detective-boy]

Crikey - the law get uppity when they're crossed...

No. I get the arse when fuckwits allege that I have posted something I haven't.

By making this response (as opposed to pointing out where I had justified the process as opposed to explaining it) presumably you are acknowledging that I didn't.

So what's so difficult about saying "Oh, sorry. Having thought about it, you're right, you just explained it. My mistake"???

 

[laptop]

this is all part of a pattern of thought crime, including the poor girl who got done for her poetry
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/dec/06/terrorism.books

Not the best example to use, since evidence was given in a later trial that she was discussing security arrangements airside at Heathrow with someone who was, in that trial, convicted of planning nasties.


I'm not sure of the sequence of legal events. What happened, I think, is that evidence of this was given at her trial but an order was made to bar reporting of it at the time, not to prejudice the later case. Why the CPS didn't just prosecute them together, I don't know.

 

[detective-boy]

Why the CPS didn't just prosecute them together, I don't know.

It would be a reasonable bet that her counsel was pushing for seperate trials ... would you have wanted her sat in the dock next them? You shouldn't for a moment think that the CPS / police ask for or support what happens in terms of trial arrangements. (I once had two brothers each acquitted at seperate trials for murder (and both convicted of possessing a firearm with intent to endanger life, having both blamed the other for the murder at their trials ...) and we and the CPS took it to the High Court to try and keep the trial together in the face of defence submissions ...)

 

[Das Uberdog]

By making this response (as opposed to pointing out where I had justified the process as opposed to explaining it) presumably you are acknowledging that I didn't.

No, I just thought it was a better quip without bringing in the relevant debate...

In proper response, looks to me like a justification in the context of the thread...

People (and the media) link arrest with having done something wrong too readily. You can be entirely innocent and yet can be entirely lawfully arrested on suspicion of something. Arrest is an INVESTIGATIVE step ... investigation means "We don't know and we're trying to find out" and, without a crystal ball, that means that sometimes they will find out the suspicions were unfounded.

Note emphasis of word 'investigative', stresses on legal position of those arrested as being innocents 'awaiting investigation', etcetera...

What you noticeably didn't do was try to convince anyone here that the police had any good reason to suspect these two individuals had anything to do with terrorist activities - because they obviously didn't, perhaps? So why stress how benignly and innocently the law is being applied?

But now their details are on record for the future 'just in case' - eh? Reassuring.

 

[JHE]

Opponents of the deportation of the Algerian have claimed that if he were sent back to Algeria he would be tortured or in some other way mistreated by the Algerian regime. Why is that? What has the regime got against him? Has he a history of involvement with the Salafist Group for Prayer and Combat or some other militant Islamist group?

The other one, the research student, has been described as politically active at Nottingham University. What are the political views of that young gentleman?

 

[goldenecitrone]

The other one, the research student, has been described as politically active at Nottingham University. What are the political views of that young gentleman?

He's a Liberal Democrat.

 

[detective-boy]

What you noticeably didn't do was try to convince anyone here that the police had any good reason to suspect these two individuals had anything to do with terrorist activities - because they obviously didn't, perhaps?

No, because I have absolutely no idea whether or not there was good reason to investigate in this case (or in any other). And nor do you.

So why stress how benignly and innocently the law is being applied?

Because people regularly misinterpret what arrest means and start frothing at the mouth about it being outrageous when in reality it is absolutely inevitable that some innocent people will be arrested and investigated sometimes.

But now their details are on record for the future 'just in case' - eh?

If the original suspicions are allayed, no. (They will be less suspected than if they hadn't been arrested and investigated and the original suspicions had just been allowed to sit there)

 

[bluestreak]

It is Western style "democracy" in full display and action, apparently.

salaam.

Don't worry Aldebaran, we'll get round to exporting it to you sooner or later

 

[Das Uberdog]

No, because I have absolutely no idea whether or not there was good reason to investigate in this case (or in any other). And nor do you.

Incorrect - I have a very good idea, that idea is that there is no good reason. I'd bet you however much I'm right, too. Seen it too many times before. So have you, I imagine.

We already know what precipitated the arrest (the possession of some probably faked and totally legal documents) - do you think the law has been applied benignly in that knowledge?

 

[detective-boy]

Incorrect - I have a very good idea, that idea is that there is no good reason.

No matter how much you say you do, you don't. No-one outside the investigation does.

We already know what precipitated the arrest (the possession of some probably faked and totally legal documents) - do you think the law has been applied benignly in that knowledge?

Have they been charged with anything? If all that has happened is an investigation has been carried out, then yes. What would you suggest the police should have done on receipt of the information?

If, on taking legal advice, they believe that the arrests were unlawful, then they can sue and we'll see what happens. If the police are of the opinion that the original information was faked (what evidence do you have for this claim?) and they were used maliciously by the college authorities then I would expect we will hear of them being investigated for wasting police time / attempting to pervert the course of justice soon.

We'll see, shall we.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Opponents of the deportation of the Algerian have claimed that if he were sent back to Algeria he would be tortured or in some other way mistreated by the Algerian regime. Why is that? What has the regime got against him? Has he a history of involvement with the Salafist Group for Prayer and Combat or some other militant Islamist group?

Do you have any evidence to suggest that he does?

 

[laptop]

Do you have any evidence to suggest that he does?

This is JHE.




He saw the guy's name.









Veins bulged on his forehead.

 

[JHE]

Do you have any evidence to suggest that he does?

I'm asking because his supporters have claimed he would be mistreated in Algeria. (You know that, assuming you read the post you responded to.)

Do you have any reason to think that he would be mistreated if he were sent home? If so, what?

 

[october_lost]

I thought it was a little pretentious, another significant action could have been done right?

 

[Das Uberdog]

What would you suggest the police should have done on receipt of the information?

[frantic do-goody worrier type] "OMG OMG THIS GUY HAS AL-QUAIDA MANUAL GON' BLOW US ALL UP!"

[Police] "CLAP HIM IN IRONS!!!"

I would'a thought they could do a little investigative work 'prior' to the arrest - y'know - so they actually know if they've got anything to be suspicious of?

If, on taking legal advice, they believe that the arrests were unlawful, then they can sue and we'll see what happens.

If they have enough money they can sue - and in the face of the fact that a court would almost certainly side with the police in all but the most blatant cases involving abuse of their authority. That, and the actual point which I'm making, which is that the Public Order Act and "anti-Terrorism" legislation has already institutionalised and legalised gross cases of abuse of police power.

You seriously think it's alright (and when I say 'alright' I'm not talking about 'legal' - please understand) for the police to arrest someone AND detain them without any preliminary investigation as to whether or not they're a threat? ESPECIALLY as I'm sure you're aware of how maleable the law is, and how crimes can be fitted to a person (quite legally, I might add) in almost any given situation.

 

[chainsaw cat]

What should be questioned is if these arrests would have been made if the people involved were White UK Christians.

salaam.

And exactly how would the arresting officer know if the arrestee was a christian? Or indeed a 'UK' whatever you think that means? And just how 'White' is 'White'?

Not all christians wear mismatched clothes and smell of last weeks laundry you know. Some of them are under cover.

By the by, when I studied at Nottingham (briefly) it was so overwhelmingly a wannabe Oxbridge place that the politics of the HQ were blatantly anti working class. That included any expression of solidarity outwith the university.


May have changed in the last dozen or so years.



And, furtherly by the way, Notts constabulary (in my direct experience from two or three angles) include some of the most raving right wing nutters you will ever meet and some committed socialists trying to do a good job of community law enforcement.

Wouldn't put numbers on it, but both are there.

 

[chainsaw cat]

this is all part of a pattern of thought crime, including the poor girl who got done for her poetry
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/dec/06/terrorism.books

and this kid who dared download the anarchist cookbook

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7030096.stm

Link won't open from my laptop... is that the girl who was arrested for her 'poem' which was reading out the names of British dead in Iraq at the cenotaph? Or the airport shop worker who wrote 'poems' about religious war, both in the news over the last year or two?


I'd suggest that one was more fitting of the 'thought crime' moniker than the other, and the other impossible to justify under any circumstances.

 

[chainsaw cat]

The point is that in the other two cases (and every other case which has resulted in charges) they HAVE done something more - there is a context to what they have read or written.

Let's assume that there is a real terrorist cell planning a re-run of 7 July. At some stage of their planning the situation if anyone intervenes will be as it is in these cases. Are you really saying we should be unable to intervene at that stage and have to allow them to run, with all the risks of things not being as we suspect them to be from the imperfect information of our surveillance, until they actually have some explosives or have killed dozens of people (and possibly themselves)?

This case, I acknowledge, appears different than the other two but, so far as I am aware, all that has happened is an investigation. Are you saying that it is even wrong to investigate when suspicions exist?

Maya Evans.


Much as I admire your stance in general, and even more your knowledge, can you give us a justification for the arrest of Maya Evans at the Cenotaph in 2005?

Couldn't the coppers involved have simply said 'No, boss, we have far more important things we could be getting on with. Don't be silly.'


Come to that, I can't see how the magistrates involved felt comfortable going anywhere beond unconditional discharge and a few choice words about the legislation and the police.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

I'm asking because his supporters have claimed he would be mistreated in Algeria. (You know that, assuming you read the post you responded to.)

I did indeed see that. I wondered though why you picked on the particular possible reason that you did, having no apparent supporting evidence.

 

[liampreston]

Re: The Video. The way the officer says "I'm the law..." and the wall causing "distress"...it's very frightning...

 

[newbie]

Link won't open from my laptop... is that the girl who was arrested for her 'poem' which was reading out the names of British dead in Iraq at the cenotaph? Or the airport shop worker who wrote 'poems' about religious war, both in the news over the last year or two?


I'd suggest that one was more fitting of the 'thought crime' moniker than the other, and the other impossible to justify under any circumstances.

You're right about Maya Evans, but the 'lyrical terrorist' can't be dismissed so easily. She did have some peripheral involvement in a real world crime as laptop pointed out above (which I didn't know tbh, but which doesn't change the circumstances that much), but that's not the message her story delivers. Her conviction was for collecting bad ideas from the internet and for writing fantasies, not for actually doing anything- she was acquitted of 'possessing an article for terrorist purposes' and not charged with involvement or conspiracy in any actual terrorist plot.

dewey-eyed teenagers do things like that- the difference is that if the info she'd been collecting was all Andy McNab SAS heroism and her fantasies were about glorious death while winning the Victoria Cross, the law wouldn't bat an eyelid. That stuff is encouraged while she has become a criminal for what she read and fantasised about, because her wetdream was about martyrdom for her weird religious view.

Within a so-called free society that restriction is just as troubling as the ludicrous situation Maya Evans highlighted or Gerry Adams voice being banned from the telly. Both of those ridiculous laws have been swept away, yet reading, collecting or fantaising about Jihadist (or anarchist cookbook) material remains potentially a 'crime'.

 

[winjer]

Opponents of the deportation of the Algerian have claimed that if he were sent back to Algeria he would be tortured or in some other way mistreated by the Algerian regime. Why is that?

People deported to Algeria are often mistreated, regardless of their background. It is probably worth noting that it is "a criminal offence punishable by up to five years’ imprisonment to criticize publicly the past or ongoing conduct of the security forces."

The other one, the research student, has been described as politically active at Nottingham University. What are the political views of that young gentleman?

They're both involved in the Nottingham Student Peace Movement http://www.su-web.nottingham.ac.uk/~nspm/index.php

Beyond that, ask him?

 

[Spion]

Opponents of the deportation of the Algerian have claimed that if he were sent back to Algeria he would be tortured or in some other way mistreated by the Algerian regime. Why is that?

You are (quite rightly) against deportation to Iran of those the regime there may wish harm against. Why do you appear to be in favour of deportation to Algeria for this chap? I smell double standards here, and not for the first time with JHE

 

[chegrimandi]

from the clip

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=uZLwtit8GXM

'this wall is causing harassment & distress to people'

how do the police deliver these lines without laughing?

That kid got arrested for saying that the policeman was threatening to arrest people and that that was a breach of the peace...

 

[Spion]

from the clip

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=uZLwtit8GXM

'this wall is causing harassment & distress to people'

how do the police deliver these lines without laughing?

That kid got arrested for saying that the policeman was threatening to arrest people and that that was a breach of the peace...

Teehee, that quite tickled me. The cops and uni authorities looked so silly