TUC. Would they get your vote?

[nino_savatte]

What I said to which you responded with that question was that Crow was "nothing special". I meant that idiomatically. To translate, I meant that he was not unique or even noteably different from other trade union leaders, at least in how he comes across in the media and at the TUC.

I don't see how my views about different "union leaders" is of general interest or relevance, and it's a whole different thread anyway, since it would have to start with clarifying what we mean by the phrase "union leader", and then go on to discuss whether we meant "right ideas" in terms of principles or politics or just general all round goodpersonness and the same with "right qualities", and then debate the context in which these qualities may be evident.

You seem to be having a bit of a go at me, and I am not sure why. I wonder if you are mistaking me for someone else? Particularly since you thought we had had a conversation about the union for which I work and/or am a member, neither of which I have told you....

I can assure you have no particular or personal antipathy towards Bob Crow. Ask me about any other General Secretary, and I would doubtless be equally negative

I'm not having a "go" at you, I simply asked you a question in response to your assertion that "Crow was nothing special".

 

[Guineveretoo]

I'm not having a "go" at you, I simply asked you a question in response to your assertion that "Crow was nothing special".

And I replied.



Are you going to ask me about another trade union leader?

 

[Guineveretoo]

I've got to go, actually - my presence is required in the hall.

So, another day, eh

 

[nino_savatte]

And I replied.



Are you going to ask me about another trade union leader?

Well, you didn't actually give me a reply to the question and no, I'm not going to ask you about another TU leader. Now you can slide off to your next fringe meeting.

 

[Groucho]

Just returned from the TUC.

G - the relationship between the TUC and the LP is explicit. Firstly the largest dominant unions are affiliated. The majority of the General Council would bail out Labour over the interests of union members every time, if they can get away with it.

The TUC has this week* agreed to co-ordinate public sector strikes - a major victory for the PCS and others.

*Although like most decisions the decision to back that proposal was taken before the largely stage managed congress itself.

Bob Crow was one of the best and most genuine speakers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6987810.stm

 

[Zeppo]

J. Baume (FDA) voted onto TUC General Council. The same man who attacks PCS and strikes in general. He is a shit.

Great news on the PCS motion and co-ordinating action across unions against Brown 2% pay limit. Still a long way to go but its a start. POA, CWU, PCS hopefully Unison.

We must not rely on the TUC - remember 1926.

 

[Groucho]

J. Baume (FDA) voted onto TUC General Council. The same man who attacks PCS and strikes in general. He is a shit.

Great news on the PCS motion and co-ordinating action across unions against Brown 2% pay limit. Still a long way to go but its a start. POA, CWU, PCS hopefully Unison.

We must not rely on the TUC - remember 1926.

...and Crow voted off. The voting is weilded by the tops in secret. The delegates and wider membership don't get a say, or even find out how their leaders voted.

The TUC backed the co-ordinated action motions becauase Prentis could not hold the line in UNISON and head off demands for action. Of course the TUC will do as little as possible, and nothing if they can get away with it. Trick is to keep up the pressure.

 

[Soul On Ice]

The TUC backed the co-ordinated action motions becauase Prentis could not hold the line in UNISON and head off demands for action.

Unison members have agreed to the NHS pay offer:

http://www.unison.org.uk/news/news_view.asp?did=3664

 

[Groucho]

Unison members have agreed to the NHS pay offer:

http://www.unison.org.uk/news/news_view.asp?did=3664

I know, and it is a disgrace that UNISON did not allow local reps to comment on the deal.

However, UNISON local Govt to ballot for strikes.

 

[Guineveretoo]

J. Baume (FDA) voted onto TUC General Council. The same man who attacks PCS and strikes in general. He is a shit.

Great news on the PCS motion and co-ordinating action across unions against Brown 2% pay limit. Still a long way to go but its a start. POA, CWU, PCS hopefully Unison.

We must not rely on the TUC - remember 1926.

He has been on the General Council for several years. He was re-elected, and very easily. Unlike Bob Crow, who was voted down. I have asked people what they think that means for the union movement.

 

[Guineveretoo]

Well, you didn't actually give me a reply to the question and no, I'm not going to ask you about another TU leader. Now you can slide off to your next fringe meeting.

Which question did I fail to answer?

 

[Guineveretoo]

I know, and it is a disgrace that UNISON did not allow local reps to comment on the deal.

However, UNISON local Govt to ballot for strikes.

In what way did UNISON stop local reps from commenting?

 

[Guineveretoo]

Just returned from the TUC.

G - the relationship between the TUC and the LP is explicit. Firstly the largest dominant unions are affiliated. The majority of the General Council would bail out Labour over the interests of union members every time, if they can get away with it.

The TUC has this week* agreed to co-ordinate public sector strikes - a major victory for the PCS and others.

*Although like most decisions the decision to back that proposal was taken before the largely stage managed congress itself.

Bob Crow was one of the best and most genuine speakers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6987810.stm

Did you really think he was one of the "most genuine" speakers?

 

[nino_savatte]

Which question did I fail to answer?

I asked you which TU leader you thought was "special". I think you said "none of them" But surely there is a TU leader whom you think is better than Crow.

 

[poster342002]

The voting is weilded by the tops in secret. The delegates and wider membership don't get a say, or even find out how their leaders voted.

And you still hold out any illusions or hope in such a farcical outfit?

 

[poster342002]

.Of course the TUC will do as little as possible, and nothing if they can get away with it. Trick is to keep up the pressure.

That old chestnut again - with the usual lack of explanation as to, A) How? and B) What if they just ignore this "pressure" and throw up a wall of indifference?

 

[Guineveretoo]

I asked you which TU leader you thought was "special". I think you said "none of them" But surely there is a TU leader whom you think is better than Crow.

I replied several times to that question, including explaining that I had used the phrase "nothing special" about Bob Crow idiomatically.

I don't think there is any merit in a discussion as to who is "better than" any other General Secretary, because it is impossible to judge.

Bob Crow managed to alienate the union activists at this week's TUC to such an extent that he became a figure of fun. Is that effective, do you think? I don't.

 

[Guineveretoo]

...and Crow voted off. The voting is weilded by the tops in secret. The delegates and wider membership don't get a say, or even find out how their leaders voted.
The TUC backed the co-ordinated action motions becauase Prentis could not hold the line in UNISON and head off demands for action. Of course the TUC will do as little as possible, and nothing if they can get away with it. Trick is to keep up the pressure.

This might be how your union manages the voting, but it is certainly not how all the unions do. You may wish to raise this with the PCS Executive.

 

[nino_savatte]

Bob Crow managed to alienate the union activists at this week's TUC to such an extent that he became a figure of fun. Is that effective, do you think? I don't.

It depends on one's perspective. Which union activists?

 

[Guineveretoo]

It depends on one's perspective. Which union activists?

The ones who were making jokes at his expense from the rostrum at the TUC, and the ones who were laughing at the jokes made at his expense from the rostrum.

What did you think I meant?

 

[nino_savatte]

What did you think I meant?

I wonder which union(s) they belonged to. Of course, I would suspect that those who were laughing were dyed-in-the-wool Nu Labourites or from unions that say "yes" every time the government says "no pay increases".

 

[Guineveretoo]

I wonder which union(s) they belonged to. Of course, I would suspect that those who were laughing were dyed-in-the-wool Nu Labourites or from unions that say "yes" every time the government says "no pay increases".

From where I was sitting, it appeared to be people from most of the unions. Bob Crow made a fool of himself. He made a comment from the rostrum which was disparaging to other unions, as a consequence of which he opened himself up to condemnation and ridicule.

 

[Groucho]

This might be how your union manages the voting, but it is certainly not how all the unions do. You may wish to raise this with the PCS Executive.

The PCS voting was in accordance with PCS policies and the delegates wishes, unlike other unions such as UNISON who did not either consult their members and delegates nor reveal to them which way their votes were cast. As far asI could tell this was also the way that both sections of UNITE operated.

 

[Guineveretoo]

The PCS voting was in accordance with PCS policies and the delegates wishes, unlike other unions such as UNISON who did not either consult their members and delegates nor reveal to them which way their votes were cast. As far asI could tell this was also the way that both sections of UNITE operated.

UNISON voting was also in accordance with UNISON policies and delegates wishes, too

Don't know about the two sections of UNITE, but I would be very surprised if the delegates, at least, didn't know how the votes were cast.

 

[Groucho]

From where I was sitting, it appeared to be people from most of the unions. Bob Crow made a fool of himself. He made a comment from the rostrum which was disparaging to other unions, as a consequence of which he opened himself up to condemnation and ridicule.

What you are referring to here is Bob Crows statement that:


(This is from memory so is not word for word)

I wish the representative from the Musician's union who replaces me on the General Council the very best. If people want to replace a striker with a banjo player that's up to them.

Although most people thought this statement was crass, a lot of delegates thought kicking Bob Crow off the council was wrong, including a number of the delegates from UNITE and UNISON. UNISON delegates wanted to join the 'Fair pay for public servants' protest against Brown but were forbiden from doing so. FDA delegates who did join in were told off by their glorious anti-strike Govt apologist leader who has been voted on to the General Council.

 

[jiggajagga]

AS the thread starter I would like to say I have enjoyed many of the posts on this thread. Most entertaining and enlightening.
However, I have come to one conclusion.
The working man on or just above min wage in this country is FUCKED!!

 

[urbanrevolt]

Unless the working man and the working woman start to get organised themselves that is... if you depend on the TUC then jiggajagga's conclusion would be true

However, if we start organsing it ourselves then may be we'll have a very different conclusion.

 

[Groucho]

UNISON voting was also in accordance with UNISON policies and delegates wishes, too
.....

So you think voting Bob Crow off was a good way to move closer to united action by public sector unions, or do you think that voting for New Labour apologists who will seek to avoid any confrontation with New Labour would be the best way to secure UNISON policy on this issue??

 

[cockneyrebel]

Although most people thought this statement was crass, a lot of delegates thought kicking Bob Crow off the council was wrong

To be honest why is it crass? How can one of the most militant and powerful unions in the country be replaced by the musicians union? It's a joke.

Bob Crow is no saint. For a start he doesn't take the average workers wage of his membership and like the rest of the union leaders (other than Serwotka, and even he takes more than the average workers wages, although gives a fair chunk back to the union) gets a massive salary. In his case I think it's around £63,000. Dave Prentis got £84,927 in 2006. I believe the head of the TUC gets more like the £200,000 mark. Whatever, they all get wages out of reach of the vast majority of workers.

But at least Bob Crow seems to genuinely want to fight for his union and doesn't have his tongue shoved up Brown's arse.

Guineveretoo you can pendantically talk about the word principle all you like but as far as I'm concerned the union general secretaries are almost always self serving selfish bastards who end up with their reward of a place in the House of Lords. The TUC has a disgraceful record from 1926 through to the miner's strike.

And the way unions are run is also a disgrace. I'm in UNISON and it's totally top heavy and undemocratic with Prentis and his clique. The union has demoralised the membership so much that they have a pathetic turn out for elections for the general secretary (less than 20% I think).

In what way did UNISON stop local reps from commenting?

UNISON tops originally said that branche committees should not comment to members about the deal but then backed down. But the mere fact that they even said it in the first place says it all.

PS I heard a rumour a couple of years back that Dave Prentis was extremely ill, anyone know if this was true?

Prentis was born and brought up in Leeds and went to the University of London where he took a Bachelor of Arts degree in history. This was followed by a masters degree in industrial relations at the University of Warwick.

Also where did Prentis work when he left his studies?

 

[Guineveretoo]

What you are referring to here is Bob Crows statement that:


(This is from memory so is not word for word)



Although most people thought this statement was crass, a lot of delegates thought kicking Bob Crow off the council was wrong, including a number of the delegates from UNITE and UNISON. UNISON delegates wanted to join the 'Fair pay for public servants' protest against Brown but were forbiden from doing so. FDA delegates who did join in were told off by their glorious anti-strike Govt apologist leader who has been voted on to the General Council.

That was pretty much what he said, or something similar. In doing so, he made a fool of himself, and opened himself up to ridicule, which is what happened.

The PCS "protest" - holding up A4 sheets of paper for a few minutes when Gordon Brown got up to speak - was hardly very noticeable or effective, but none of the FDA delegates showed any interest in trying to join in, and certainly none of them did join in, so there was no reason for their General Secretary to "tell them off", even if he had been that kind of chap!