Truths the Israelis seem unable to accept

[Gmart]

"Terrorist is in the eye of the beholder." Um, no it is not.

Um, yes it is! One man might see someone as a freedom fighter, and another might see him as a terrorist. This is obvious!

You still just won't acknowledge your invasion.

You still won't acknowledge the relevance of the youtube clips.

"...where they were born." As were many Jews, like my family, and my kids.

A straight up fallacy this.

And I notice how you fail to comment on the interview I saw with Meshal.

You are the most classic example of thinker-prover I have ever found. ANYONE can prove what they like to themslves. A racist does, a sexist does and they ALL feel that they are being reasonable. I hope that you wake up soon, and I hope that the Israelis do too. I have no problem with your invasion, it is just your actions now which are so difficult to take. Even when Israelis or allies go on record to point out the near apartheid situation as is, you still prove it to yourself that your actions are somehow justified.

There is no point in this. You refuse to accept any 'proof' (which is also in the eye of the beholder), because you are only happy with the 'proof' which supports you.

I have tried to be reasonable, but I see now why the Palestinians feel forced into violence when confronted by your attitude. Though no doubt you have convinced yourself of your reasonableness too.

 

[rachamim18]

G: No, it is not in the eye of a beholder. There is both a true definitition, as in the dictionary, and an accepted one. Your take fails on both.

"Fallacy." What is false? My family being born there? Be specific.


Before I continue talking to yuo, because I have an aversion to playing games and talking in circes, please answer just one question: HAVE YOU EVEN EVER READ THE HAMAS CHARTER?


If not, you have no buisness talking about anything having to do with HAMAS or peace.

 

[cemertyone]

"Terrorist is in the eye of the beholder

Well at last we agree on something...so when the BRAVE isreali airforce launch a bomb on an apartment block in the middle of the night ( knowing full well that the kids that die are as you jews para phrase it " collateral damage) gosh dont you make hiltlers kids look silly...
For nation that underwent the nazi regime your nation and state are a stain on humanity...

 

[Lock&Light]

Well at last we agree on something...so when the BRAVE isreali airforce launch a bomb on an apartment block in the middle of the night ( knowing full well that the kids that die are as you jews para phrase it " collateral damage) gosh dont you make hiltlers kids look silly...
For nation that underwent the nazi regime your nation and state are a stain on humanity...

This has to be one of the stupidest statements I have ever heard.

 

[nino_savatte]

This has to be one of the stupidest statements I have ever heard.

You're not too good at self-criticism, are you? You're fond of telling folk of their faults but display many anti-social personality traits of your own. But, there is no irony to what you say; no self awareness, just more snide remarks.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well at last we agree on something...so when the BRAVE isreali airforce launch a bomb on an apartment block in the middle of the night ( knowing full well that the kids that die are as you jews para phrase it " collateral damage) gosh dont you make hiltlers kids look silly...
For nation that underwent the nazi regime your nation and state are a stain on humanity...

"You Jews"?
Fuck off cemerty, you'd soon get on your high horse if I referred to all Irish Catholics as "you taigs".
"Israeli" and "Jew" are not synonymous.
Oh, and by the way, no Jewish "nation" underwent the Nazi regime, no Jewish state. It was the Jewish culture and it's people.

 

[rachamim18]

Cemerty: Nazi analogies are so passe. I know that youngsters have a penchant for the rebellious and shocking but at this point it is just so silly.Get back to me when the first Israeli pushes an Arab into a crematoria...

"You Jews..." Careful, you are not hiding your true colours too well.

 

[Gmart]

Cemerty: Nazi analogies are so passe.

If only they were passe...

 

[Gmart]

Equal voting rights? Not really... see here.

When Israel conquered East Jerusalem from Jordan in 1967, the government decided to expand the city’s boundaries to improve the army’s strategic positioning in order to defend the city from Arab armies. But that also meant taking responsibility for some 70,000 Palestinians at the time. The community became Israeli permanent residents – a status bestowing most of the same rights as citizens, minus voting rights for the Knesset (but including the vote for the municipality.)

 

[rachamim18]

G: "If only.." Do Israelis tattoo Arabs? Do they work them without pay until they droop dead? Do they turn Arabs into lampshades? Do they freeze Arab babies to death in experiments? Bake them in ovens? Creamtoriums?

"Voting." ALL CITIZENS VOTE. Permamant Resident is not a citizen, surely even you can grasp that little piece of obvious reality.

 

[Gmart]

Permamant Resident is not a citizen

Keep telling yourself that that is OK!

 

[invisibleplanet]

If only they were passe...

He's understating the issue when he says passe. Actually, they're false analogies. Very rarely, someone gets the analogy correct (Yad Vashem, for example) but then Gmarthews probably won't have heard of them, because he doesn't actually link to any real pro-Palestinian or joint Arab-Israeli peace work, does he?

But I should add - stories of soaps made from human fat and lampshades made of human skin are just that - stories - Yad Vashem has disproved these tall tales, and using them in discourse about Israel-Palestine issues just feeds the far-right neo-nazis/neo-fascisti who revel in revisionism designed to denigrate the events of the Holocaust in relation to it's affect on the worldwide Jewish community.

 

[Gmart]

Herman Goering:

“Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger.”

 

[invisibleplanet]

“ War can so easily be gilt with romance and heroism and solemn national duty and patriotism and the like by persons whose superficial literary and oratorical talent covers an abyss of Godforsaken folly.”

George Bernard Shaw, Common Sense About the War, 1914




“ One might argue that the propaganda efforts of the Govt. to control the media contributed to the 'callous complacency' of 'the majority of those at home' regarding 'the contrivance of agonies which they do not, and which they have not sufficient imagination to realise.”

Siegfried Sassoon, Declaration against the War, 1918

 

[invisibleplanet]

“The control of home opinion was a fundamental requirement of war propaganda because a favorable public opinion is a prerequisite to the successful prosecution of a modern war, which is waged not only on the land, air, and sea fronts, but also on the economic and moral fronts.“

(Lutz, Studies of World War Propaganda, 1933, p497)



“After the United States entered the war, the press throughout the country systematically undertook to misrepresent and malign pacifists as a recognized part of propaganda and as a patriotic duty. We came to regard this misrepresentation as part of the war technique. . . ."
Jane Addams, prominent feminist pacifist,

(Zeiger, She Didn't Raise Her Boy to Be a Slacker: Motherhood, Conscription, and the Culture of the First World War, Feminist Studies, Vol. 22, No. 1996, p17-18)



"It was on my return from The Hague Congress in July, 1915, that I had my first experience of the determination on the part of the press to make pacifist activity or propaganda so absurd that it would be absolutely without influence and its authors so discredited that nothing they might say or do would be regarded as worthy of attention."

(Zeiger, 1996, p17-18)

 

[invisibleplanet]

I'm not following you, Gmarthews. Do you care to explain? Are you trying to say that the Israelis can't accept what you perceive to be Herman Goering's "truth"?

Herman Goering:

 

[rachamim18]

G: "Rachamim needs to keep telling himself that the fact that Arabs outside the Greenline are permanant residents and not citizens is ok." Arabs want it this way. To take citizenship (and a couple of thousand actually do become Israelis every year) is to negate your half centry old claim of injustices, misery in camps, and possibly any future claim to tangible benefits.

Invisible: "Stories about soap and lampshjades are false." Soap is false, lampshaed (and wallets too) are true. In the war natural resources were dwindling in Germany and oeople like Mengele DID produce such atrocious alternatives. however they were nover released commerically.

"The best that Revisonists like Hilberg and/or Orgel can claim is that the events "were PROBABLY NOT true (emphasis mine of course).":

In May of 1945 released a report sponsored by the US Army (General of the 3rd Army) concerning allegations of abuses and possible genocidal acts in Buchenwald Camp.

Among acts concerning skin, a book bound by human leather, with tatoo intact, was placed in evidence for the afore mentioned inquiry. The pathologist was Major Ruben Cares, US Army.

Amazingly a fair number of Revisionists like Buttz claim that these atrcoties DID take plce but do so in hopes of making a meandering claim against the Holocaust. In short, the issue is even accepted as fact but extreme racists like Buttz.

Buttz says that 2 things too place. When Nazis DID take skin it was in general research and only happened with previously dead specemins. When this was not the case Buttz said that the Allies wished to destroy the very countenance of Hitler.


There are several cases of the Nazis doing this on a small case basis.

 

[rachamim18]

G: What did you hope to achieve by posting that blurb about Goering?

Invisible: I am well aware of Shaw's pacifism but ask yourself what would have almost certainly happened had the US and Allies not gone to war?

"Propaganda, propaganda, buzzz, mumble, whistle, bell, whistle, and propaganda"...: Propaganda is a staple for ANY entity, nation or otherwise.Intelligent folks find it easy to circumvent or disregard it.

"Propagnda machine pushed the US into the war." You mean Pearl Harbour is false? aoense did not rape Nanking? Occupy and brutalise this nation (people still retain scars)? War sucks but thank G-D we do have it.

 

[Gmart]

I would like to draw the attention of the posters to link on Youtube which I posted earlier, but which no one has commented on.

A synopsis would be:

Paul Findley - US congressman for 22 years - We are in a deep hole due to the heavy bias we have in favour of Israel. The rest of the world cannot understand the dreadful punishment that Israel inflicts on virtually defenseless people.

Francis Boyle, a professor of International Law spoke to Joel Zinger the head military lawyer for IDF, about the treatment of the Palestinians which he had witnessed during his 2 week stay. He stated that it was clear that the Israelis were inflicting "Nuremberg Crimes" on these people, and demanded an explanation. Zinger put forward "military necessity" as the reason. Boyle pointed out that this excuse was used by the Nazis at Nuremberg and that it was thrown out.

Ghassan Andoni, a Palestinian Christian Nonviolence leader, described himself as repeatedly arrested, harassed and tortured.

James Akins, a former US Ambassador to Saudi Arabia described the White house as dominated by Israel; Eugene Bird a US Service Officer 1952-1975 described policy on Israel as dictated by the Israelis Lobby.

Edward Peck, another former Ambassador, this time to Iraq suggests that bad things will happen to the Americans due to this policy.

 

[Gmart]

Also this link, which has been linked before, but which is a site set up specifically to highlight the injustices that Americans are supporting thru their support of Israel:

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

 

[rachamim18]

G: the reason why noone has commented on yuor Youtube nonsense, aside from me, is because those videos are the product of American NeoNazis. I would kindly suggest that before aligning yourself to the views of others, you actually examine just what their views consist of (IF you are not actually a Nazi yourself).

As for 5 talking heads agreeing with your apparently racist views, I would offer that I could, if I desired, post a thousand prominent people offering long rebuttals showing how flawed your DaviDuke logic really is.

As for your second post, it is not a Nazi site but many Nazis belong to it. Tell me, doy uo call the US Govt. "ZOG?"

 

[Gmart]

Tell me, doy uo call the US Govt. "ZOG?"

Eh??

If you feel able to dismiss such people as Ambassadors, congressman and professors of law so easily, then that is your privilege. Meanwhile, given the choice between their authority, and you, I will take theirs.

I see no reason to comment on other people's lack of comment, either on this thread or others. I have paid enough attention to this issue thru here and other media outputs to know that both sides are at fault in different ways, while both deliberately ignoring the rights of the other. If you could put a reasonable head on for just a moment you might have found me to be uniquely open to you, however you have attacked me at every opportunity, while deliberately disrespecting any views which are not your own.

i wish you luck though. i hope the Israelis do manage to get thru without falling into the same trap as the Nazis (uncommented on again I notice), and furthermore I hope that the Arabs remain weak so that they won't be able to wreak their revenge for the treatment you seem so unable to notice.

It saddens me that you would accuse those eminent people of being racist along with myself. Such Ad Hominem responses without evidence just show the dodgy land you find yourself on.

 

[Spion]

I would like to draw the attention of the posters to link on Youtube which I posted earlier, but which no one has commented on.

<snip>

That video is saying stuff that seems to be being said more and more - the Israel lobby (zionists and Christian right) has a stranglehold on Washington which has led to an extremely unbalanced foreign policy and is boosting terrorism.

This article - John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt, "Letter: The Israel Lobby," London Review of Books - makes the case in more depth. It's clear that many senior US establishment figures outside the neo-con clique are concerned about this

 

[Spion]

G: the reason why noone has commented on yuor Youtube nonsense, aside from me, is because those videos are the product of American NeoNazis.

Shame on you. You're a desparate man

 

[ViolentPanda]

Eh??

If you feel able to dismiss such people as Ambassadors, congressman and professors of law so easily, then that is your privilege. Meanwhile, given the choice between their authority, and you, I will take theirs.

I see no reason to comment on other people's lack of comment, either on this thread or others. I have paid enough attention to this issue thru here and other media outputs to know that both sides are at fault in different ways, while both deliberately ignoring the rights of the other. If you could put a reasonable head on for just a moment you might have found me to be uniquely open to you, however you have attacked me at every opportunity, while deliberately disrespecting any views which are not your own.

i wish you luck though. i hope the Israelis do manage to get thru without falling into the same trap as the Nazis (uncommented on again I notice), and furthermore I hope that the Arabs remain weak so that they won't be able to wreak their revenge for the treatment you seem so unable to notice.

It saddens me that you would accuse those eminent people of being racist along with myself. Such Ad Hominem responses without evidence just show the dodgy land you find yourself on.

"ZOG" = "Zionist Occupation Government", a little something American fascists came up with to describe their government.
In other words, Rachamim is, in the form of a question, insinuating that you're a neo-nazi/fascist.
Strange, considering his claims to never insulge in ad hominem debate.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Shame on you. You're a desparate man

It's a bit weak, isn't it?

Me, I haven't commented purely because I'm on dial-up, so youtube is too bandwidth hungry to bother with.

 

[Spion]

"ZOG" = "Zionist Occupation Government", a little something American fascists came up with to describe their government.
In other words, Rachamim is, in the form of a question, insinuating that you're a neo-nazi/fascist.
Strange, considering his claims to never insulge in ad hominem debate.

Even stranger considering his past as an Israeli (Kach Party) fascist

 

[rachamim18]

G: Who said I dismiss the people IN those videos. I dismiss those who made them. As for the failed politicos who let us in on their paranoid delusions, that is another issue entirely.

"Both sides are at fault.." And yet you only accuse Israel, why?

"G's views are different than Rachamim's.": This might be suprising to you but not only do I post regularly on HAMAS and Hezbollai websites, but also do so on American racist sites. I believe in TRUE dialog. I do not have time though for apeing of propaganda,etc. I invite different perspectives and that of course is the main reason I even bother with this site.

However, when people such as yourself post racist drivel and then defend it when unmasked, I lose whatever modicum of patience I MIGHT have had. Do not take it wrong, i do NOT get angry, just lose interest.


"Uncommented on.": Could you be a bit more specific.

"Saddens G that I call those politicos racist."Panda: Why would you EVER imasgine that I use such terminoloy myself? I suppose you as well have a difficult time discerning sarcasm and/or irony. Jew haters use that phrase (ZOG).

Spion: I suggest you study exactly what fascism is before tossing it about. It describes and ideology or individual who believes all else is subservient to the state. That is far from KACH (KACH actually hated the Labour Govt. of Israel) the only form we had until KACH was officialy being created.

 

[Spion]

Spion: I suggest you study exactly what fascism is before tossing it about. It describes and ideology or individual who believes all else is subservient to the state.

Who's crappy definition is that? It's nonsense.

 

[rachamim18]

G posts videos, and although noone has supported them, their apathy is just as bad.

"If American Knew" is an Arab shill founded by Alison Weir. While I myself have neither met here, or even heard her talk, I have many friends that have and also have read all her published work on the issue.

She describes the Hebron Pogrom, an even that directly effected my family, as an "Arab Uprising." People like Panda love to dissect semantics but I wonder what Panda would have to say about describing a massacare that aimed for the extermination of an entire ancient (predating any Arab there by at least 2500 years) community as a "DEFENCIVE" action, soemthing to be admired.

Her claim that Zionists partnered with Nazis during the Holocaust , although repeated by SOME here time and again, is atrocious.

Like many like minded people she intentionally skips over very important parts of contextual history. she talks of how the Arabs suffer in "WB" camps but fails to tell us that those camps were populated in 48 when Jordan siezed the land. Not a rod of course about Jordan.

Some of her statements are actually scary, as in she acts extremely mentally ill. She says that when Arabs transit an IDF Checkpoint at nght, a soldier points their flashlight at each passnger and points the light in a different direction as a way to try and confuse Arabs from entering Secuirty Zones so that the soldiers might then have a rationale to murder Arabs .

She ignores some important facts of course, namely, the IDF Checkpoints are among the most scrutanised (by both the govt. AND the International Community) on th planet. Some operate among the most heavily populated regions on the planet, yet we never see even a shred of this claim (and many others).

She calls this action "Death Pointing" and her intent is to illustrate that Israelis are Nazis. This is something (although many ignorant people on this board agree with her) that goes beyond words. She styles herself as an objective journalist, making it even more offencive.

She associates with PIJ and defends their actions.

Most disgustingly, is her participation on this website:

www.davidduke.com/general/how-the-jewish-supremacy-in-media-lies-to-us_257.html

So much for your video G, and all those here who remained silent as you promoted it.