Trouble at the Country Show?

[Blagsta]

So what do you suggest?

I mean: he was dealing smack from home and walking around with a loaded gun at a popular public event, for fuck's sake.

Yes he was. He was also 14. I think he probably needs to be removed from society for a bit, however merely sending him to jail might well make him worse. The problem is deeply ingrained in our society. If kids growing up on estates don't see any prospects, they see people working legit jobs getting paid shite wages and gangsters driving around in BMW's, then they might well think...hey I want some of that.

 

[detective-boy]

my mate got caught up in this "trouble" just as she was leaving on her bike. According to her, the police moved in in what looked like a heavy handed way (apparently in response to some money being stolen..?) and got a load cans and bottles thrown at them.....

An example of not jumping to conclusions about how "heavy-handed" the police have been perhaps??

 

[detective-boy]

... they see people working legit jobs getting paid shite wages and gangsters driving around in BMW's, then they might well think...hey I want some of that.

Sadly I think that is now so ingrained it will take a generation to change it ... provided they don't see the same

 

[netbob]

So what do you suggest?

Not sure, but I doubt Feltham is going to do him him any favours. Or us.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Or should he just be sent on a white water rafting holiday in Wales instead?

This comment wouldn't look out of place in a Sun editorial, would it?

 

[editor]

If kids growing up on estates don't see any prospects, they see people working legit jobs getting paid shite wages and gangsters driving around in BMW's, then they might well think...hey I want some of that.

How do you know that he was growing up on an estate with no prospects?

 

[editor]

Not sure, but I doubt Feltham is going to do him him any favours..

Me neither. But what do you suggest?

 

[editor]

This comment wouldn't look out of place in a Sun editorial, would it?

I wouldn't know. I don't read the Sun.
What do you think should happen to him?

 

[zenie]

Six months in Feltham and he'll be dead anyway.

"Lost cause" they'll say, "another statistic"- another young black man dead whether in YOI or when he's 17/18 and is released and having learnt lots and lots of his cellmates (If they haven't tried killing him because they're racists, or he hasn't commited suicide both pretty common in Feltham tbh)

Half of me thinks poor kid the other half says he knew exactly what he was doing.

Not up to us to sentence him thats what people who wear wigs and get paid lots do

 

[Blagsta]

How do you know that he was growing up on an estate with no prospects?

I don't. How do you know he wasn't? Look - I'm not making excuses for him. What I am doing is saying that the roots of social problems go deep and the solutions aren't simple. I'd lay a fair bet he was from an estate with no prospects - I see people everyday in my job who got involved in crime, guns and drugs at 14. None of them come from a nice little place in the country iykwim.

 

[Stobart Stopper]

So banging him is going to teach him...what exactly? Now I agree that dangerous people need to be removed from society. But with some kids, criminality, violence, drugs etc is all they know. What chance do they have?

Good to see someone here has their facts right. Pig deals with youngsters like this all the time. He sees things from a different perspective to the string 'em all up brigade. Often the parents of the kids who are sucked into this sort of crime are at their wit's end and don't know which way to turn. He's of the opinion that the best thing to do for many young offenders from rough estates is to take them out of the environment and allow them to get a fresh start somewhere else where there's less pressure from their peers to deal drugs, carry knives or whatever. Many of the kids he has dealt with are intelligent boys who have just got caught up with gangs and can't see a way out.

It's a vicious circle, they stay out of young offenders' institutions and just carry on with the gangster thing as once you are sucked in it's not simply a case of walking away , but if they go inside they just get brainwashed by older kids who fuck them up even more.
The way things stand at present there are no solutions IMO.

 

[netbob]

Me neither. But what do you suggest?

Obviously for carrying a gun he's got to be banged up, but guns and heroin is a pretty shitty start out in life. You'd hope there'd be some kind of support where ever he ends up (and if the includes white water rafting as well as punishment then albeit).

Lets hope he isn’t one of the YO's who ends up in an adult prison - apparently the home office has been re-designating individual cells as young offenders institutes.

 

[prunus]

Half of me thinks poor kid the other half says he knew exactly what he was doing.

That comment made me wonder and think back to when I was 14 - did he know what he was doing, really? I did some F*****G stupid dangerous idiotic things when I was 14, because I thought, in fact I don't know what I was thinking really. Did I know exactly what I was doing? I don't know. I've got a feeling that if the shit had hit the fan the same way it has for this kid I would have been a bit 'blinking in the light' stunned, sort of 'er, I didn't mean it, it just seemd like a cool idea at the time...'. I'm not sure I had any idea of 'consequences'.

Just musing; don't know that it sheds any light on the problem, sorry.

 

[Ms T]

Yes he was. He was also 14. I think he probably needs to be removed from society for a bit, however merely sending him to jail might well make him worse. The problem is deeply ingrained in our society. If kids growing up on estates don't see any prospects, they see people working legit jobs getting paid shite wages and gangsters driving around in BMW's, then they might well think...hey I want some of that.

I'd agree with this. My neighbour, and my beauty therapist (both middle-aged black women with sons) tell me they watched their sons like hawks as soon as they hit puberty, because it's all too easy for young men growing up round here to become involved in drugs and crime. One of them packed her teenage son off to family in Jamaica (not Kingston, obviously) when he started getting into trouble at school. Unfortunately, a lot of kids don't have that kind of parenting. (My neighbour, in particular, is scathing of a lot of the parents round here).

Unfortunately the young kids who do get involved in crime don't see the bigger picture until it's too late. That it's all too easy to end up in prison, or dead.

 

[citydreams]

Every time I've taken the train from Loughborough Junction I've overheard a conversation between kids discussing ways of running t'ings to make a bit of extra money. Last time the girl was 15 and was telling her brother to take a hike after he suggested she was getting into a man's world. He was only 14.

 

[William of Walworth]

This bloke looks very like he's a dealing, guntoting, swaggering arse who definitely needs punishment of some sort.

BUT it'd be nice if people like Blagsta could question or invite for discussion, the practical benefit (I mean to society) of banging a youth up for a long stretch in an Academy of Crime that may make him even worse/more dangerous/more criminal a character..

Just because Blags (and I, and no doubt others) are dubious whether prison actually works and wonder about the counterproductivity of our current prison system (in terms of making young criminals worse), does NOT mean we want to send him white water rafting or on a Caribbean holiday!!!!

People coming out with that that kind of distortion of other posters' 'liberal' opinions, should have a little think about how insulting the 'prison may not work' automatically equals 'wanting to let them off' shit must sound to people who want a more thoughtful, practical approach to crime/punishment.

Why what do you suggest a cuddle from a social worker & a holiday swimming with the dolphins in the Caribbean..

Andy, that is ernestolynch-style distortion of and lying about and sneering at other peoples' so called 'liberal' opinions at its Sun-headline-like worst.

I thought that sort of polarising, debate wrecking shit had diminished from these forums after ernesto had got banned. Clearly not

 

[lang rabbie]

IMO, all South Londoners, "liberal" or not, ought to be campaigning to demand dramatically more Secure Training Centre places for offenders of this age rather than them all being dumped in Young Offenders Institutions.

They have much higher staff ratios and are correspondingly more expensive than YOIs

 

[netbob]

IMO, all South Londoners, "liberal" or not, ought to be campaigning to demand dramatically more Secure Training Centre places.

OK, where do we write to?

 

[zenie]

IMO, all South Londoners, "liberal" or not, ought to be campaigning to demand dramatically more Secure Training Centre places for offenders of this age rather than them all being dumped in Young Offenders Institutions.

They have much higher staff ratios and are correspondingly more expensive than YOIs

Sorry but like it or not this is the same thing as a YOI only there's more staff and younger kids.

They still learn shit off each other and will enforce their own hierarchy - I've lived in secure units and you can't be watched 24 hours a day.

The fact that its run by a private company as well makes me nervous of such schemes.

 

[William of Walworth]

IMO, all South Londoners, "liberal" or not, ought to be campaigning to demand dramatically more Secure Training Centre places for offenders of this age rather than them all being dumped in Young Offenders Institutions.

They have much higher staff ratios and are correspondingly more expensive than YOIs

Cheers -- something positive!

Apologies for earlier rant, but this grotesque conclusion that some Urban posters draw, that if another contributor isn't happy with a filling up the prisons fast policy, then they must therefore favour a social worker holding their hands on holiday or whatever, does piss me off a tad.

It's Littlejohnesque and Ernmestoesque and Grotesque.

It's perfectly possible to question existing prison policies on the grounds of them not working, or that they might be Academies for Crime turning out offenders who are worse than when they went in -- in other words, thinking something might be counterproductive does not mean you're 'soft on crime', to insinuate so was a favourite ernesto trick when he was around and busy 'censoring by trolling' in EXACTLY that fashion on crime/punishment related threads.

That line of 'thought' polarises discussion and in any case is a complete non sequiteur.

I'm not qualified to have too many alternatives to the current prison system that DO work, but I like the look of lang rabbie's suggestion, and I know Mrs Magpie favours restorative justice as an idea, and so do I, where appropriate, it would probably only work for crimes less severe than the ones being discussed in this thread.

But I'm sure people can come up with other ideas, if they're not put off by posting them by the prospect of being sneered at as a 'liberal' or as being 'soft on crime' when they don't immediately howl for kneecappings and harsh maximum pain longest sentence possible punishments for young offenders ...

<edit to add>

editor's rebuke (next page) noted and taken on board, but I do think Urban can do better than it does sometimes when discussing crime/punbishment related issues ... the ex-poster mentioned was a very negative role model in terms of what to avoid in such debates if you don't want them to risk descending into polarised accusation and counter accusation. All IMO naturally.

 

[editor]

But I'm sure people can come up with other ideas, if they're not put off by posting them by the prospect of being sneered at as a 'liberal' or as being 'soft on crime' .

William...relax! That person no longer posts here!

 

[William of Walworth]

Sorry but like it or not this is the same thing as a YOI only there's more staff and younger kids.

They still learn shit off each other and will enforce their own hierarchy - I've lived in secure units and you can't be watched 24 hours a day.

The fact that its run by a private company as well makes me nervous of such schemes.

Missed this.

Sounds like a reasonable objection but that's not to say that a VERSION of such a scheme couldn't work at all -- that is if we're suggesting possible improved means of dealing with young criminals as part of a more general discussion.

 

[William of Walworth]

William...relax! That person no longer posts here!

While that's true, I only mentioned him because one or two posts in this thrread made the same sort of false-logic connection between not favouring the current prison system (or other harsh punishments) and being soft on criminals that erm ... used to be made.

The second doesn't follow from the first.

 

[Dave Mullen]

I wouldn't bank on him getting a custodial sentence as there are a number of factors like his previous character family background etc. I do recognise that its a difficult issue as to bang him up may lead to a future career in crime,but due to the nature of his offences there is also the issue of protection of the public. As a lot of you know I have had two encounters with street robbers in the last 4.5 years so I can sympathise to an extent with those who advocate restorative justice.

 

[netbob]

to bang him up may lead to a future career in crime,but due to the nature of his offences there is also the issue of protection of the public.

They shouldent be inconpatable though should they? In reality they probably are though. I get the feeling that as long as public opinion about the options avaliable are polarised (either lock 'em up or send them to butlins) the the penal system will reflect that.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Obviously for carrying a gun he's got to be banged up, but guns and heroin is a pretty shitty start out in life. You'd hope there'd be some kind of support where ever he ends up (and if the includes white water rafting as well as punishment then albeit).

Lets hope he isn’t one of the YO's who ends up in an adult prison - apparently the home office has been re-designating individual cells as young offenders institutes.

Yep, pretty much a reversion to the same tactics HMPS used in the '80s to "ease overcrowding". The problem is that it makes the YO much more vulnerable than they would be in a YOI (and that's saying something ).

 

[ViolentPanda]

I wouldn't bank on him getting a custodial sentence as there are a number of factors like his previous character family background etc. I do recognise that its a difficult issue as to bang him up may lead to a future career in crime,but due to the nature of his offences there is also the issue of protection of the public. As a lot of you know I have had two encounters with street robbers in the last 4.5 years so I can sympathise to an extent with those who advocate restorative justice.

The gun alone might not have, but IIRC they still charge you separately for possession of ammo, so that's possession of class A drugs, possession of an illegal firearm and possession of live ammunition. Even for a first offence he'll probably be looking at least at a partially-custodial sentence.

AFAIC it should be custody plus some kind of training/rehabilitation, not just a lock-up job, otherwise you're solving nothing, just warehousing the person until their sentence is served.

 

[William of Walworth]

The gun alone might not have, but IIRC they still charge you separately for possession of ammo, so that's possession of class A drugs, possession of an illegal firearm and possession of live ammunition. Even for a first offence he'll probably be looking at least at a partially-custodial sentence.

AFAIC it should be custody plus some kind of training/rehabilitation, not just a lock-up job, otherwise you're solving nothing, just warehousing the person until their sentence is served..

That's where I'm at with this as well. I doubt anyone who's posted on this thread, least of all those who have caricaturingly smeared as Caribbean holiday favourers, would disagree with wht VP has postd in essence ...

 

[Pickman's model]

Just because Blags (and I, and no doubt others) are dubious whether prison actually works and wonder about the counterproductivity of our current prison system (in terms of making young criminals worse), does NOT mean we want to send him white water rafting or on a Caribbean holiday!!!!

we're in agreement, then - as far as you go...

 

[William of Walworth]

we're in agreement, then - as far as you go...

Any further ideas then?