Tribe

[STFC]

Having watched the first two episodes of this series, I agree that it is made clear that Bruce will only be staying with the tribes for a short while, to learn about their culture and help out with the day to day tasks. Certainly last week when he met the Nyangatom, he stated that he would pay to cover the cost of his stay, and he also supplied some meat. I don't think the tribes are under any illusions that he will become a fully fledged member and stay with them forever. The tribespeople appear to enjoy having an outsider stay with them, and as mentioned before, they often laugh at his efforts to join in with their activities. I think he is respectful of the people he encounters and their customs, even if he finds them uncomfortable (like the whipping last night).

 

[madzone]

While they may not expect him to live with them full time they will of course expect him to visit them and to contribute to the tribe in all the ways that a family member would,

Will they? I can't say I've evr got that from any of the programmes I've watched. Last night somoene did say he could marry one of their women now but I got the feeling it was somewhat of a pisstake.

 

[Idaho]

I read a few posts of that. Seems to be endless navel gazing, hand wringing and second guessing what is going through these people's minds.

 

[Charlie Drake]

Which tribe was it he revisited? How much of the programme did it take up?

Can't remember the name of tribe, but it was one on the western side of the Omo River. They were really happy to see him saying "Ah, here's our old friend Bruce" etc. After Bruce explained that he was off to visit their sworn enemy, they went very quiet, mumbled to each other, looked very concerned which Bruce picked up on. it took up the first couple of minutes of the programme.

I think Bruce has a genuine interest and respect for the tribes he stays with. Remember we only see an hour, too.

One thing I've noticed is that all the tribes like a laugh and a piss take and that kids are the same all over the world! Great prog if you ask me.

 

[Dan U]

You could just try watching the series you're busily compaining about. It was in last week's episode. He came back to see the tribe he visited last year and then went off to visit their enemies, taking time to explain his reasons.

and he bought gifts for them.

I think its a fascinating and interesting progamme and the empathy and warmth seems to me to be a two way thing. there's too much of it to be clever editing or tv tricks.

it was the same in the last series

 

[STFC]

Can't remember the name of tribe, but it was one on the western side of the Omo River. They were really happy to see him saying "Ah, here's our old friend Bruce" etc. After Bruce explained that he was off to visit their sworn enemy, they went very quiet, mumbled to each other, looked very concerned which Bruce picked up on. it took up the first couple of minutes of the programme.

I think Bruce has a genuine interest and respect for the tribes he stays with. Remember we only see an hour, too.

One thing I've noticed is that all the tribes like a laugh and a piss take and that kids are the same all over the world! Great prog if you ask me.

I think the tribe was the Suri. They were very concerned when he said he was off to meet their enemies, the Bume. It was only when he met them that he found out that Bume means "the smelly ones"!

 

[maya]

thought this thread was about the teen soap series/fantasy show "The Tribe"...

my niece is obsessed with it...

 

[May Kasahara]

That's the bit I always like in his programmes, where you can hear the tribespeople taking the piss out of Bruce ("he dances like a girl!" etc etc).

My favourite one was the tribe that uses a ? caterpillar to clean their ears out; Bruce says he wants to try it, so they hand him this massive grub which he tries to encourage into his ear hole...after about 5 minutes they all start pissing themselves laughing and hand over the real, tiny, wriggler...I'm not usually one for practical jokes but that was class.

 

[lostexpectation]

I have to agree with everything looloo said it seemed like initiation tourism

 

[hammerntongues]

That's the bit I always like in his programmes, where you can hear the tribespeople taking the piss out of Bruce ("he dances like a girl!" etc etc).

I agree and he certainly wouldnt need to have included these snippets in the translation if he chose not to , we would be none the wiser but they show perhaps the real side of some of the characters , the side when they are relaxed and off-guard , even tribesmen play up to the camera I bet.

 

[editor]

You can watch some opf the shows in full here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/tribe/

This is interesting too:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/tribe/topics/issues.shtml

In fact the whole site is an amazing resource. Good work BBC!

 

[TeeJay]

...I think that to the tribes concerned that this will feel like a terrible betrayal and evasion of the serious responsibilites that come with being intiated into the tribe...

It is explained to the participating group that he is only going to be there for a limited tme and will then leave. How could this be a betrayal? If the group don't want to participate they don't have to. They know in advance that he isn't go to stay forever.

People become attached and bond emotionally in all sorts of contexts, both in the rich western world and in places similar to those featured in these programmes. When people have got to know and like each other they will often be sad when it is time to leave. I don't see why you are making a bigger deal about this in this context than any other - ironically it seems like you are placing these tribes/groups in some romantic special category.

 

[TeeJay]

...My guestimate is that the tibes see this affluent man with his entroage of media people and guides and he says wants to be their friend and to join their tribe. Obviously this seems like a good move for them as they would like some of what he has, and if he is a tribe memberr he will have a respnsibility to provide to his family / tribe...

So you are guessing that these peope are cynical and materialistic?

Have you ever spent any time in places like this? I spent 6 months travelling overland through North, West, Central and East Africa and in many places people were massively generous and welcoming - in fact the poorer (which also meant more rural) the people were the more welcoming and generous they seemed to be. This had nothing to do with cynical calculations of self interest - it was obvious I was just passing through and there weren't any demands for money etc. Many people were genuinely interested in talking with and finding out about an outsider like myself and what I was doing there, took pride in showing me around their village, or home or neighbourhood and seemed to enjoy thr novelty and fun-factor.

I am very used to seeing people project their own tired cynicism onto other people especially from other cultures, just like you seem to be doing here.

 

[linerider]

No need to be sneery, I have watched all the episodes except last weeks

In fact I watched last week's from about half way through and IMMIC he wasn't revisiting anyone

Which tribe was it he revisited?

How much of the programme did it take up?

It was at the begining of the show and he showed the tribe the program he had made about them on his laptop,they seemed very pleased with the result
and concerned about him going to visit the tribe who the consider to be an enemy

 

[TeeJay]

the point I'm making is that by becoming initiated into the tribe the people understandably and quite reasonably expect to have a relationship of kinship with him.

This is the whole point of the initiation.

You are making vast and gross generalisations here - not all the 'tribes'/villages are the same. You also have no real way of knowing what they are really thinking or expect. In fact yoiu are projecting a whole load of stuff onto these people are treating them like idiots, which makes you the one who is not showing respect or understanding. You seem to have a fetish about 'western' and 'non-western' as if there is some massive dividing line between people - but there isn't. Humans are all very similar in so many ways.

Do you really think that these people think Parry doesn't already have a family, home and life of his own? Do you really think they believe that he is the kind of person who would walk away from all these things? Do you really believe that even though they know he is only going to stay for a short time they actually think he is going to saty and become a permanent part of their village?

Like someone said previously - you are treating them ike children or idiots.

A far more realistic way of looking at it is that they become very attached to Parry and get to like him, feel that he has in some way been accepted into their group rather than stayed as an outsider, and so they are expressing these feelings to him. Yes they maybe are sad to see him go, but people are often sad to see people go when they have become attached to them or if they have been through a lot together. This is a universal human emotion surely, not some west versus non-west thing.

 

[TeeJay]

I'm wondering if you've seen the same programme as me.

Last night we saw Bruce jump cows.

Why?

Well according to the people in the tribe it was because that by jumping cows you become elligible for marriage. That is the point of the cow jumping ritual.

Unsurprisingly, after Bruce has jumped the cows we hear one of the tibe members asking "will he now marry one of our women?", a perfectly reasobale question under the circumstances given that Bruce had just performed the ritual that makes him a member of their tribe elegible to marry one of their women.

The fact that the person thought that Bruce would marry one of their women is hardly indicative of stupidity on their part, naivety perhaps, and it also suggested that the people in the tribe were unclear about why Bruce was taking part in the ritual.

Someone asked "will he now marry one of our women?"

This doesn't indicate they thought he would, that they wanted him to (or didn't) - it is just someone asking a question, thinking out loud.

Why on earth do you read so much into this?

If this was a documentary about someone spending a month with a family in Glasgow, for example, would you start reading vast amounts of supposition into every last sentence uttered by one of the group? Or do you reserve this level of analysis for remarks made by 'non-westerners'?

 

[Louloubelle]

So you are guessing that these peope are cynical and materialistic?

no

just that they are normal and motivated by similar things to other people all over the planet, rather than exotic 'noble savages' who are 'fierce' and concerned only with mysterious rituals because they are more 'spiritual' or 'closer to nature' than westerners and don't value material things.

I think that the Tribe portrays the tribal people as exotic, mysterious, fierce, 'other' without taking the time to respectfully learn about the realities of the people's lives.

Back in the 70s and 80s there were proper anthropology programmes like Under the Sun and Disappearing World, wherer the role of the presenter was minimal and the emphasis was on learning about the people themselves not the presenter.

Have you ever spent any time in places like this? I spent 6 months travelling overland through North, West, Central and East Africa and in many places people were massively generous and welcoming - in fact the poorer (which also meant more rural) the people were the more welcoming and generous they seemed to be. This had nothing to do with cynical calculations of self interest - it was obvious I was just passing through and there weren't any demands for money etc. Many people were genuinely interested in talking with and finding out about an outsider like myself and what I was doing there, took pride in showing me around their village, or home or neighbourhood and seemed to enjoy thr novelty and fun-factor.

And in your travels, how many times were you initiated into a local tribe?

What did you learn about initiation and it's cultural context?

I've spent a lot of time researching a paper on initiation rituals and rites of passage and I have an opinion on this programme based on the material I've studied, which is pretty extensive. I'm not the world's greatest authority but I'm entiled to have an opinion on the subject.

I am very used to seeing people project their own tired cynicism onto other people especially from other cultures, just like you seem to be doing here.

Teejay, I think that you have got the wrong end of the stick here. People do project things onto people in other cultures all the time and I probably do it too, I think everyone on the planet does it, but IMO, much as I like Bruce Parry, this programme is not really respectful of the tribal people people it portrays.

 

[TeeJay]

Back in the 70s and 80s there were proper anthropology programmes like Under the Sun and Disappearing World, wherer the role of the presenter was minimal and the emphasis was on learning about the people themselves not the presenter.

You think that this makes them more "objective"?

I haven't seen these shows but I expect that you just replace a focus on individuals and personalities with another set of 'biases' - of schemes, categories and labels invented by academics.

If this was an academic programme purporting to show a fly-on-the-wall view of a group interacting without any outside impetus and making serious anthropological points about their tradtions and beliefs then I can see why academics would have a problem with it.

However this series doesn't pretend that this is what it is doing. It is obvious that the central idea is an outsoder arrives and much of the programme focuses on this unusual circumstance - Perry trying to cope with their customs and them reacting to this strange and usually comic outsider. There is an element too of role-reversal as many of these groups often end up with no power vis-a-vis outsiders in their area (eg state military, corporate interests coming to mine or log, other stronger groups), whereas Perry is typically initially reduced to the role and status of a young person.

So this show doesn't pretend to be an academic anthropological study rather than watching an individual's experiences with new customs and way of live and a groups reaction to this stranger/visitor. What makes it compelling is that it really gets up close to real life human beings and doesn't make them into dry and abstract arms-length 'examples' or 'exhibits', like an academic study would do.

(Just to answer one of your questions: I didn't take part in any ceremonies and this would have been entirely beside the point for me anyway. I met a hell of a lot of individual people and found out a bit about their lives and communities. I wasn't on some kind of academic research trip and I wasn't looking at the people I met as 'examples' to be studied. They were real people just like you and me, and most of their lives didn't revolve around ceremonies, but around far more everyday things - making a living, having a laugh - just like ours do).

 

[linerider]

Very good again last night.