Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

Discussion in 'UK politics, current affairs and news' started by The Flying Pig, Sep 14, 2017.

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  1. Sea Star

    Sea Star i no longer belong here

    That was funny - the number of US conservatives who tweeted that at me, mistakenly believing that the man involved was actually a trans woman was unbelievable. An inevitable consequence of the TERFs campaign of deliberately confusing people by referring to trans women as "transgender men" and the media not having a fucking clue. They were using an example that actually undermined their argument and they didn't even know it :eek::D:D
     
  2. Sea Star

    Sea Star i no longer belong here

    The opposite of trans is cis though. If instead of natal you use cis then that's what trans people have been doing for decades.
     
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  3. Sea Star

    Sea Star i no longer belong here

    Oh, might as well mention, one of the higher profile TERFs on Twitter last week was complaining that a man tried to stop her using the ladies toilet because she looks a bit boyish :D:D:D

    Karma, or something!!!:thumbs:
     
    pengaleng likes this.
  4. xenon

    xenon Carne Por la Machina

    Sorry, this is just waffle. On average natel women and men are biologically different. This isn’t necessary to argue against to accept, recognise if you will, trans-women are women.
     
  5. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    There is a very strong case for requiring trans men to compete in men's competitions. They are likely to be taking various things that would have them thrown out of women's competitions as drugs cheats.

    That case doesn't extend to trans women, though.
     
  6. xenon

    xenon Carne Por la Machina

    Yeah sure. I think I said on the other thread. I don’t have a problem with being referred to as a cis male. I think other people do because it confers upon them they are experience a comfortableness with their gender, which they do not subscribe to.

    I’m not entirely sure I am human no joke by the way. But I am personally happy with cis meaning I am not trans-. I just have issues beyond the realm of gender. ..
     
  7. Sea Star

    Sea Star i no longer belong here

    Well, they're wrong if they think it does that. It means not trans. That's all it means. If you can't use "cis" then please use "not trans" even if it does sound incredibly clumsy.
     
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  8. 8ball

    8ball Most Ignoreable Poster 2016

    There are simple views that work *almost all of the time*.
     
  9. elbows

    elbows WoeTimer

    I will accept a general charge of being a waffler overall in my posts. But I do not take kindly to matters that are of relevance to, for example, scientific understanding in relation to intersex stuff, being dismissed as waffle, outliers, an irrelevant awkward detail. Far from it.
     
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  10. Sea Star

    Sea Star i no longer belong here

    Also, missed the other bit of your post. Some differences, lots of similarities. Same with any group individuals. Trans women, as we are women, and most of us are feminists, and proud to be women, will work to further the cause of all women regardless whether trans or cis. So the idea that the tiny number of us who happen to be trans should be forced to identify as men and be excluded from women's spaces and women's politics is both self defeating and bizarre. Also, serves no purpose other than that of furthering hatred and othering of trans women.
     
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  11. Nigel Irritable

    Nigel Irritable Five, Ten, Fifteen Years

    You can’t reasonably discuss trans women in elite sport without first taking into account the bigger issue of attempts to police sex in sports in ways that victimize women with intersex conditions. Elite sport is to a very large extent the preserve of people with advantages from unusual physiologies. For essentially cultural reasons, sports bodies have on the one hand celebrated many women whose performances are aided by unusual physical attributes and on the other humiliated and persecuted women whose performances are aided by unusual physical attributes that are associated with various intersex conditions. Elite sport is the arena where attempts to impose a neat binary onto biological sex most obviously and quickly collide with a messier reality and the results to date have been cruel in the extreme.
     
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  12. xenon

    xenon Carne Por la Machina

    Intersex people are a rarity.
     
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  13. Nigel Irritable

    Nigel Irritable Five, Ten, Fifteen Years

    Less rare than trans people.
     
    Sea Star likes this.
  14. Sea Star

    Sea Star i no longer belong here

    Trans people are a rarity
     
  15. elbows

    elbows WoeTimer

    Without even beginning to attempt to do the whole subject justice, I have an additional interest in scientific and medical areas related to intersex conditions because it does sound like we have reached a point where some of the previous generation of relatively crude genetic understanding is being replaced with something more nuanced as capabilities improve. eg going from the old, basic XY chromosomal stuff, to individual gene expression. And probably some more sophisticated developments on other fronts which I know even less about. I will be quite surprised if, after several more decades of discovery on these fronts, the picture ends up as simple, and I will also be surprised if there turn out to be no implications at all for how 'the masses' think of themselves in terms of sex.

    I was just searching the web for random papers to see if I could find whatever it was I was reading weeks ago and I could not, but I found something about changes to intersex classification systems that seemed quite interesting and raised a number of points that I might be able to tie in to this thread.

    SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class journal research

    I want to know more about these feminist technoscience studies.
     
  16. xenon

    xenon Carne Por la Machina


    Sure, I don’t have an argument with that. But there are, will be tensions at the edge cases. As in refuges, sport. Toilets okay let’s have cubicles, unisex, Toilets for everyone. We do at work. It is not a problem.
     
  17. Sea Star

    Sea Star i no longer belong here

    Also, I'll point out here, there are intersex people who also identity as trans. Too often I see people seeing intersex people is against trans people but there is a significant overlap between the two
    I've never had any problem in toilets. I know trans women that have been in refuges, one that works in one. There's no problem apart from a few outside agitators

    I'm not getting involved in the sports argument though as I know nothing about sport, and don't even like it, but I have seen a lot of scare mongering about it, and yet women's sport seems oddly bereft of hordes of trans women winning everything.

    And also I know quite a few trans women who take part in sport and are completely supported by the women they compete with so I think the problems are largely over blown. Wonder why?
     
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  18. elbows

    elbows WoeTimer

    Theres quite a lot of stuff in that article about how badly the new classification system went down with some intersex activists, and it sounds like the author wanted to do the issues related to this stuff justice. But it is late and its a rather heavy academic piece so I will probably take another look at it tomorrow and try to find some lighter sources of info on that topic.
     
  19. xenon

    xenon Carne Por la Machina

    If for argument sake, A group of sis women, natil Women, Want to organise a meeting to discuss issues around abuse, misogyny, things they have experienced. And exclude trans-women and sis man. I think that is okay. That is my bottom line I suppose. Not that I would do it but if I organise the meeting for visually impaired people, blind people to talk about shit. We should be allowed to say sighted people can’t attend.

    That is a niche thing sure. Not something to build wider solidarity around of course. But certain issues to pertain to those who have directly experienced them. Sometimes that is necessary. Anyway just thinking aloud, I should go back to lurking.
     
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  20. MochaSoul

    MochaSoul It's being enslaved of your own free will

    Oh yes, I can well imagine in 3 decades or so you calling me "cisrace" too when some decide white is not quite "me" either. It's only a matter of time after all.
    Central Delaware NAACP opposed to Regulation 225 - Delaware State News
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018
  21. Vintage Paw

    Vintage Paw dead stare and computer glare

    Trans women experience domestic abuse and misogyny as well. You'd perhaps be surprised by the stats, but there are sadly high rates of domestic abuse and rape, for example, of trans women. Not to mention murder. Some of those things are exacerbated by their trans status, some are just part and parcel of being a woman. I find it very difficult to accept a situation where trans women are routinely excluded from groups and services dedicated to helping in those areas.
     
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  22. Athos

    Athos Well-Known Member

    If 'trans' means that gender identity and sex are not aligned, and if 'cis' means 'not trans', then it follows that 'cis' means that gender identity and sex are aligned. But, there's lots of people who don't consider themselves to have a gender identity (this thing that exists independently of sex or socialisation). As such they do not identify as 'cis'. It's arrogant and hypocritical of you to insist on labelling them as 'cis'. Why should people refer to you in your preferred terms when you don't extend that courtesy to others?
     
  23. 19force8

    19force8 For the avoidance of faith

    Didn't we go over the whole transrace thing on another thread? Or was it this one? Maybe we should just stick with the Latin.
     
  24. bimble

    bimble noisy but small

    Tomorrow.. a call for uncritical support (particularly from biological women) outside the court where the incident at beginning of this thread is going to be heard. Rally round to defend the person accused of assault from the violence of the terfs..Is this really a good idea?
    DVlk4n5WsAESp9O.jpg DVlk5ZkW4AAgt81.jpg
     
  25. Sea Star

    Sea Star i no longer belong here

    What makes you think trans women don't experience the same abuse and misogyny that cis women experience?
     
  26. JimW

    JimW 支那暗杀团

    The British judiciary traditionally delighted to have masked up crowds of citizens outside the court.
     
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  27. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Every man and every woman is a star

    I'd have thought it would be different
     
  28. 19force8

    19force8 For the avoidance of faith

    But then isn't everybody's?
     
  29. Athos

    Athos Well-Known Member

    Two points:

    First, by that logic, why exclude men (trans and non-trans) from 'women's' shelters, given they experience domestic and sexual abuse?

    Secondly, a related point. Personally, I favour trans inclusion into e.g. shelters, on pragmatic grounds; the alternative would be to deny trans women much needed support. But that's a slightly different question to the one of principle. What if there were sufficient shelters for all people to receive the support they need, without being housed together? If non-trans men could be supported away from trans women, and non-trans women could be supported away from all natal males? Would you favour separation? Or (presumably only in the case of trans and non-trans women) would you still favour mixing, notwithstanding any distress it might cause non- trans women who've been the victims of male abuse. Because, in that instance, inclusion would not be based upon trans women's right to support as victims of abuse, but upon a prioritisation of trans women's desire to have their belief about their gender validated over the distress of vulnerable non-trans women.
     
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  30. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Every man and every woman is a star

    Yeh I doubt I get the same abuse you or sea star might
     
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