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Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

Discussion in 'UK politics, current affairs and news' started by The Flying Pig, Sep 14, 2017.

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  1. Sea Star

    Sea Star hello, I'm a man.

    This is not part of any argument ever made by a trans person. Just pointing this out because of that implication wasn't implicit then why was this even posted?

    And it's clear from shit like this that any attempt to be honest, open and factual by trans people is pointless, because you'll all repeatr just what you have learned from the media and the anti trans campaigners, and fail to listen to a word we say, and not attempt to even slightly understand who we are, and what trans is. Almost as if you all think we're just making it up to be awkward.
     
    Vintage Paw, tiki and HoratioCuthbert like this.
  2. Nigel Irritable

    Nigel Irritable Five, Ten, Fifteen Years

    The primary victims of sports gender policing have always been and will continue to be for the foreseeable future people with intersex conditions who were assigned female at birth. Many of them won’t even have known they had intersex conditions before being victimized.

    That letter above, written by an idiot who thinks that the Olympics represent “what is best and most noble in us all”, glories in the indignities imposed on women suspected of having intersex conditions. I’m not surprised though that transphobes here are keen on the views of a Trump supporting prominent social conservative. Who, incidentally, despises feminism. But what’s the importance of things like that when she’s on the right side of the only issue that really matters, making life more unpleasant for trans people.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018 at 9:07 PM
  3. HoratioCuthbert

    HoratioCuthbert Lies, lies

    I can't believe she hijacked MLK day to write that ;)
     
    Vintage Paw likes this.
  4. Magnus McGinty

    Magnus McGinty Wh♂️

    I was being sarcastic... so fair point.
     
  5. HoratioCuthbert

    HoratioCuthbert Lies, lies

    :eek::eek: Are you drunk? You dropped the pokey stick!
     
    Magnus McGinty likes this.
  6. Magnus McGinty

    Magnus McGinty Wh♂️

    The point I was getting at is that it often seems like contradictory positions appear to be being argued simultaneously. When it comes to sport men and women are apparently the same. Yet we’re not, hence transitioning.
     
  7. Nigel Irritable

    Nigel Irritable Five, Ten, Fifteen Years

    For those who don’t know who Henkel is, she is a prominent Brazilian social conservative, Trump supporter, anti-feminist and supporter of the judicial coup by the Brazilian right. That’s who Mocha Soul is applauding and representing as some poor athlete upset with “MRAs” (ie trans people) “messing with her passion”.

    These are the allies the TERFs are making and this is the level of honesty with which they debate.
     
    Vintage Paw, tiki and cantsin like this.
  8. smokedout

    smokedout criminal

    What was being argued was that transitioning, as in taking hormones, takes away the competitive benefits of having a biologically male body. So hormonally transitioned trans women are the same as cis women when it comes to sport, not men and women. You can agree or disagree with that but it's not contradictory with the need to transition and it's not a fair representation of the discussion to say that it is.
     
  9. Magnus McGinty

    Magnus McGinty Wh♂️

    You do realise that it’s possible to hold similar positions to political opponents for entirely different reasons?
     
  10. Magnus McGinty

    Magnus McGinty Wh♂️

    I don’t agree with this but admit ignorance on any research into the matter.
     
  11. Nigel Irritable

    Nigel Irritable Five, Ten, Fifteen Years

    And whitewashing the politics of reactionaries, presenting one of them as apolitical or as someone who wasnt interested in feminist issues until some evil trans people messed with her sport, that’s the sort of thing that just happens sometimes right?
     
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  12. HoratioCuthbert

    HoratioCuthbert Lies, lies

    Yes, me and Nigel Farage are pro Brexit . You don't see me translating his letters in to Gaidhlig.
     
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  13. Magnus McGinty

    Magnus McGinty Wh♂️

    :D perfect example!
     
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  14. smokedout

    smokedout criminal

    This sadly seems to be a common position in lots of areas when it comes to trans people.
     
  15. Magnus McGinty

    Magnus McGinty Wh♂️

    I’ve admitted ignorance. However, I don’t see much evidence of transmen competing at the highest levels of male dominated sport which would be the case if it was simply about testosterone or lack of?
     
  16. MochaSoul

    MochaSoul It's being enslaved of your own free will

    Funnily enough, Nigel,
    1. I had already noticed she was rw I even mentioned she never gave a fig about feminism not long after I posted her link;
    2. Another funny thing is that one of her latest blog posts is called "Biology is neither lw nor rw." - I haven't yet read it but you're a good reason why I don't have to wonder why she wrote it;
    3rd funny thing is that you continue to think and act as if hurling labels were enough to challenge others arguments;
    4. I never said trans people messed with her sport. I said MRAs had and I was quite deliberate about that. Funny how you missed that too - misrepresentation is a great thing for you isn't it?

    Funny how funny you are!
     
  17. Sea Star

    Sea Star hello, I'm a man.

    Gosh, whoever said it was just about testosterone?

    Consider how few trans people there are I can't see us dominating sport any time soon, or ever.

    As it happens there have been a fair few trans men competing in top level men's sport, as there have been a few trans women doing well in women's sport. But to say that trans men or women are dominating sport, or ever could be, is just ludicrous.
     
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  18. Athos

    Athos Well-Known Member

    Can you give details of these fair few trans men competing in top level men's sport, please?
     
  19. MochaSoul

    MochaSoul It's being enslaved of your own free will

    Name of one trans man in top level sport please, Sea Star.
     
  20. Magnus McGinty

    Magnus McGinty Wh♂️

    Smokedout said the lack of testosterone in transwomen levelled the playing field with ciswomen. I just wondered then if that was the case then the reverse must be true.
     
  21. Magnus McGinty

    Magnus McGinty Wh♂️

    I think that’s more frightening than the authoritarianism tbh, facts being invented on the hoof.
     
  22. Nigel Irritable

    Nigel Irritable Five, Ten, Fifteen Years

    You deliberately misrepresented her as an apolitical athlete who wasn’t even interested in feminism until “MRAs”, by which you meant trans people or trans rights supporters, “messed with her passion”. In fact, as you were well aware, she has a long term interest in feminism in that she hates it. And far from being just some random athlete, her continued prominence after her athletic career is due to her role as a right wing social conservative activist. Her intervention is right wing culture wars shit and you are doing your best to amplify it.

    It’s not surprising that you approve of her views. Social conservatives are the people your movement hopes will do the heavy lifting in their bigoted crusade and you misrepresented who she is because you are deeply dishonest. That you approved firstly of her letter, which talks about the unique glories of “Western civilization” and boasts about the invasive methods used to persecute women with intersex conditions out of athletic competition and then later of her claims that this issue is neither left nor right just makes your nasty agenda clearer. You will cheer on any arsehole as long as they express anti trans views and you will lie to make them seem less noxious when it suits you.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018 at 11:06 PM
  23. Vintage Paw

    Vintage Paw dead stare and computer glare

    Anti-trans feminists use MRA as a slur towards trans people and those who support them all the time. 'Handmaiden' is another that gets thrown around.
     
    Sea Star, Nigel Irritable and Rutita1 like this.
  24. MochaSoul

    MochaSoul It's being enslaved of your own free will

    There is a big difference between trans people, TRAs and MRAs do you know or care?

    Do you have an argument against her position on transwomen in women's sports?
     
  25. MochaSoul

    MochaSoul It's being enslaved of your own free will

    Of course we do. I did that to myself until only this December.
     
  26. Sea Star

    Sea Star hello, I'm a man.

    And being told I'm a misogynist (and all the rest, homophobe, fantasist, pervert, etc) off the bat, before I've even managed to say anything. I did try, for ages, to have the discussion they claim they want to have but after months of that shit I had to close myself to it. Then they say we refuse to talk about it. Yeah, wonder why.
     
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  27. Nigel Irritable

    Nigel Irritable Five, Ten, Fifteen Years

    Like most other people in this thread I am well aware that TERFs use “MRA” as an insult for trans women and their supporters, which is exactly what you were doing. Further displays of obvious dishonesty in an exchange where you were just caught lying don’t do your bigoted cause much good you know.

    I’m not at all interested in the culture wars polemics of Brazilian conservatives, nor in their bigotry. She’s just another example of the kind of allies TERFs are looking to make and your attempts to hide her wider views are just another example of the dishonesty they habitually engage in. That you are willing to endorse a letter supporting the ongoing persecution of women athletes with intersex conditions is not in itself a surprise.
     
  28. 8ball

    8ball I am Spasticus

    There’s no such thing in a simple sense as a female or male brain. There is such a thing in a fairly simple sense as a male or female body.

    If that wasn’t so there would be no sense to the word ‘trans’, or to the concept of ‘transitioning’.

    Surely we agree on that, at least.
     
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  29. elbows

    elbows WoeTimer

    There are simple views of it that work some of the time for some people, but like everything else, sufficient attention reveals a more nuanced picture.

    I dont remember what exactly I was reading when something along these lines came up in the thread about three weeks ago, or even what I was responding to, but I did say the following then.

     
  30. Nigel Irritable

    Nigel Irritable Five, Ten, Fifteen Years

    By the way, a number of trans men have competed at a high level in men’s sports. There’s one on the Harvard collegiate men’s swim team and another on the US national duathlon team for example. Endurance sports are the ones where male athletes have the smallest typical advantage (and the more extreme the endurance required the less the advantage), so it’s not that surprising that trans men would be more likely to feature in such events.

    It’s also worth noting that requiring trans men to compete in women’s events is itself enormously problematic even ignoring issues of social justice and focusing only on performance differentials. The Texas state girls high school wrestling champion last year was a trans man who campaigned to be allowed to compete in the boys championship instead. They made him compete in the girls division where his hormones gave him a much bigger advantage than a trans woman would likely have.
     
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  31. xenon

    xenon Carne Por la Machina

    Can we not say there are women. And within that there are trans-women and natal women. And within that different issues pertane.
     
    spanglechick likes this.
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