This whole debate is centering on women and femininity, like femininity is some holy grail and if only we could settle what it means to be a woman and who gets to be called woman and make sure women are happy about it all then everything will be ok. It seems as if half the debate is going unhad. I'd genuinely like to hear what those leaning towards trans-exclusivity feel about trans men. Especially what trans-exclusive tendency men (do we have any of those? Bet we do) think about women presenting as men and claiming male pronouns. I can't add more because I don't really care any more if people want to be men or women or what they want to be called. I think I did care a bit, even as recently as the first day of this thread, but by now I'm feeling the apathy more than ever. For which I think I'm grateful, on reflection.