Trains companies: Selling tickets vs Issuing Fines

[Roadkill]

I think that you'll find that it's theft in law as well as in principle.

Why don't you articulate your opinions to the "simple minded" folk on the next train where you fancy stealing a ride and see how quickly they come round to agreeing with your opinion of them and their stupidity in paying the fare. Presumably you won't as (a) you'd speedily be pointed out to nearest conductor (b) it'd actually need some moral fibre to do so.

Oooh I do love it when you get all moral and righteous on me.

In point of fact, if you'd read what I actually said rather than what you wanted it to say, you might not have jumped in quite so quickly. I can't remember the last time I bunked a train. On the other hand, I have voiced the opinion many times on late, overcrowded and unreliable trains that the service is rubbish and I don't blame people who don't pay - and had other people in the carriage agreeing with me!

So much for your rantings...

 

[sleaterkinney]

Of course everyone would like them to be lower, including me. The question is, how to achieve that.

A less complicated organisational structure to the network as a whole? Maybe.

More public subsidy? Maybe.

Selective reductions for those selfish enough to dodge the fares that everyone else pays? No.

How about making them cheap so then people would have no reason to dodge?

In order to examine whether your justification for stealing the £2700 stands up or not.

It's a simple question - if it's OK for you, is it OK for everyone else? Why are you avoiding answering it, I wonder?

No, you're proposing something I never said, in order to score points I presume. (and I never stole £2700, try matching the posts with the correct poster.)

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Yes, you stole it. Not much question about that.

Give a fuck.

As to the question of who you stole it from... I imagine you justify it by telling yourself that it all comes out of some wealthy TOC manager's pockets.

Fares make up the smaller part of TOC's earnings and profit. The majority comes from taxes, which I do pay, at 40%.

So who did I steal it from?


As I said.

Give a fuck.

 

[teuchter]

... but then, it's always easier for simple-minded people to get angry with individuals fiddling the system a little to help them get by, than it is with those who are responsible for the whole shit system in the first place, isn't it?

What about getting a bit angry with both of those parties?

I agree with most of what you say about the inefficiencies of the privatised system being responsible for the ills of our railway network, and I'm angry about the way it was privatised and much of what has gone on since.

What does "fiddling the system a little to get by" mean? What about all the others who have to "get by" and pay their rail fares?

An organised "fare strike", to make a point, like the one you mention ius different to an individual dodging fares out of pure self-interest.

If people need help getting by this should be provided in a fair way based on an assessment of needs, and a reduction in travel fares (as operates in many parts of the country) for the elderly, unemployed, etc. is perfectly legitimate and to be supported.

Like it or not, running a railway system costs what it does and someone has to pay for it.

I don't see how fare dodging can be supported by someone who values honesty and a society based as much as possible on trust.

 

[Cobbles]

They have the right to refuse travel on the basis of where you're going?. They have timetables and a guarenteed service from a to b?. No they don't.

They don't have to accept drunk, violent or abusive passengers, same as a taxi. If you think that you've been barred access unfairly then there's a higher body that you can refer to - same as taxis.

 

[Cobbles]

Oooh I do love it when you get all moral and righteous on me.

In point of fact, if you'd read what I actually said rather than what you wanted it to say, you might not have jumped in quite so quickly. I can't remember the last time I bunked a train. On the other hand, I have voiced the opinion many times on late, overcrowded and unreliable trains that the service is rubbish and I don't blame people who don't pay - and had other people in the carriage agreeing with me!

So much for your rantings...

There's a world of difference between a mealy mouthed moan about service level and not blaming folk who don''t pay, as opposed to actually exhorting others not to pay "LIKE ME 'CAUSE IT'S ONLY SIMPLE MINDED FOLK WHO PAY" - your words - have you ever shouted that in a carriage?

 

[teuchter]

How about making them cheap so then people would have no reason to dodge?

Yes, that would be nice and like I said I would like to see cheaper fares too.

Although I'm sure there would stil be people trying to dodge.

No, you're proposing something I never said, in order to score points I presume. (and I never stole £2700, try matching the posts with the correct poster.)

You said:

No, I'm saying that you cannot provide a poor service on the railways and expect people to shell out for it.

and in response to:

Originally Posted by untethered
Just not paying for a service you're happy to consume is theft. Nothing more, nothing less.

you said:

Not if it's a public service, which the railways are.

which I had read as a defense of Bahnhoffstrasse's theft of the £2700. I'm aware that it wasn't you who was confessing to the fare-dodging. But it seemed that you were supporting his position. Apologies if I misunderstood.

You still haven't answered the question: if it's OK for one person not to pay (if this is indeed your position), then is it OK for everyone else not to pay?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Truly the lack of working ticket machines/counter staff can be a frustration but at least they're making a serious attempt to prevent fare dodging slime from stealing and costing fare paying passengers more.

yeah those fair dodging slime who see no reason to line the big fat pockets of the corperate cash cows of the train assets sold off which return a fucking huge shareholder profit each year in terms of share dividends but retuern a runnning loss eah year in terms of out put... yeah they are such scum... you need a does of reality you free market moron...

 

[Roadkill]

What about getting a bit angry with both of those parties?

I agree with most of what you say about the inefficiencies of the privatised system being responsible for the ills of our railway network, and I'm angry about the way it was privatised and much of what has gone on since.

What does "fiddling the system a little to get by" mean? What about all the others who have to "get by" and pay their rail fares?

An organised "fare strike", to make a point, like the one you mention ius different to an individual dodging fares out of pure self-interest.

If people need help getting by this should be provided in a fair way based on an assessment of needs, and a reduction in travel fares (as operates in many parts of the country) for the elderly, unemployed, etc. is perfectly legitimate and to be supported.

Like it or not, running a railway system costs what it does and someone has to pay for it.

I don't see how fare dodging can be supported by someone who values honesty and a society based as much as possible on trust.

Actually, what I said (yet again) was that I don't care very much about fare evasion. I don't condone it and I don't think it's right, but I still find it a lot less objectionable than the vast amounts of money being extorted from passenger and taxpayer alike by the various companies that mismanage the industry.

The analogy I had in mind when I made my remarks about 'simple-minded' people getting worked up at individuals rather than the system as a whole was benefit fraud. I don't approve of it, but it costs the public purse a whole lot less money than the various means (legal, dubious and downright illegal) in which large companies avoid paying tax. Despite this, a lot of people get angry at the former and the latter passes without comment - mainly because the media, pursuing their own agenda, concentrate on one and ignore the other. Plus, it's easier to get worked up at identifiable individuals than anonymous companies.

I just think it's rather symptomatic of the way we are as a society that we accept the calls to clamp down on individuals who fiddle the system in little ways, whilst ignoring (or forgetting) the problems with the system itself or the activities of big players who exploit it in much bigger ways.

 

[Roadkill]

There's a world of difference between a mealy mouthed moan about service level and not blaming folk who don''t pay, as opposed to actually exhorting others not to pay "LIKE ME 'CAUSE IT'S ONLY SIMPLE MINDED FOLK WHO PAY" - your words - have you ever shouted that in a carriage?

Show me where I have exhorted "others not to pay "LIKE ME 'CAUSE IT'S ONLY SIMPLE MINDED FOLK WHO PAY""

And don't try and wriggle or try your usual tactics: show me where I voiced that sentiment - or show yourself up as a liar.

 

[Cobbles]

yeah those fair dodging slime who see no reason to line the big fat pockets of the corperate cash cows of the train assets sold off which return a fucking huge shareholder profit each year in terms of share dividends but retuern a runnning loss eah year in terms of out put... yeah they are such scum... you need a does of reality you free market moron...

The free market is the reality - anyone who doesn't understand that is the moron.

 

[Cobbles]

Show me where I have exhorted "others not to pay "LIKE ME 'CAUSE IT'S ONLY SIMPLE MINDED FOLK WHO PAY""

And don't try and wriggle or try your usual tactics: show me where I voiced that sentiment - or show yourself up as a liar.

From #57 -
Frankly, I don't care very much about fare evasion. In principle it's theft, but in practice it costs me a whole lot less money than having to fork out record fares to pay for the 'profits' of some cowboy train operating firm or others, and I know which I find a lot more objectionable. I wonder why other people don't ... but then, it's always easier for simple-minded people to get angry with individuals fiddling the system a little to help them get by, than it is with those who are responsible for the whole shit system in the first place, isn't it?

I'm not saying that you HAVE exhorted others not to pay whilst simultaneously pointing out that you're dodging a fare - that would take moarl fibre whilst simply stealing the fare and keeping quiet about it doesn't.

 

[sleaterkinney]

They don't have to accept drunk, violent or abusive passengers, same as a taxi. If you think that you've been barred access unfairly then there's a higher body that you can refer to - same as taxis.

I never said anything about drunk, violent or abusive passengers, did I. But I did mention timetables, guarenteed service etc which shows they're not the same.

 

[Roadkill]

From #57 -
Frankly, I don't care very much about fare evasion. In principle it's theft, but in practice it costs me a whole lot less money than having to fork out record fares to pay for the 'profits' of some cowboy train operating firm or others, and I know which I find a lot more objectionable. I wonder why other people don't ... but then, it's always easier for simple-minded people to get angry with individuals fiddling the system a little to help them get by, than it is with those who are responsible for the whole shit system in the first place, isn't it?

I'm not saying that you HAVE exhorted others not to pay whilst simultaneously pointing out that you're dodging a fare - that would take moarl fibre whilst simply stealing the fare and keeping quiet about it doesn't.

Er, no. In post #66 you challenged me to exhort others not to pay like me because 'it's only simple-minded folks who pay.'

You're completely wrong on two counts:

1. I don't dodge fares, which I thought would have been obvious from my comment in a previous post that 'I can't remember the last time I bunked a train.'

2. I did NOT say it's only simple-minded people who pay. My reference to 'simple-minded' people was aimed at those who grumble about fare-dodgers but don't stop to think about why the fares are so bloody expensive in the first place or hold the railway companies responsible for the shit state of their services.

Believe it or not, I don't think you're quite stupid enough to have missed those two fairly obvious points: I think you misinterpreted them deliberately so you could stick up a nice, easy straw man to sound off at.

 

[Cobbles]

I never said anything about drunk, violent or abusive passengers, did I. But I did mention timetables, guarenteed service etc which shows they're not the same.

In one trifling aspect maybe so but they're both absolutely available for public access - e.g. the right-on Liverpool Council's public Transport web page ( http://www.liverpool.gov.uk/Transport_and_streets/Public_transport/index.asp )

Car Club, Buses, Trains and..........

TAXIS

 

[sleaterkinney]

which I had read as a defense of Bahnhoffstrasse's theft of the £2700. I'm aware that it wasn't you who was confessing to the fare-dodging. But it seemed that you were supporting his position. Apologies if I misunderstood.

It wasn't.

You still haven't answered the question: if it's OK for one person not to pay (if this is indeed your position), then is it OK for everyone else not to pay?

It's a stupid question, that's why I'm not answering it.

 

[sleaterkinney]

The free market is the reality - anyone who doesn't understand that is the moron.

If you think the economy in britian, let alone the rail companies operate in a free market - you're a Grade A Moron

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

The free market is the reality - anyone who doesn't understand that is the moron.

free market is but a paszxing phase of the history of humanity it can be done or undone as soon as people choose it... that is the reality and anyone who doesn't understand that is in for a rude awakening from their comatic slumber... however, there is nothing so nietzschian as to be describing people as slime... indeed that level of dehumaniseation surely shows the prevading mentality of the poster to be one who hasn't yet come to terms with other people...

but go ahead and justify it simpleton... i imagine this to be like cave men pounding rocks and attempting to explain quantum mechanics in it's technique... do, pray do, tell us how human beings can be stripped of all their rights and humanity by not paying a fair on a train... care to explain the scale of this dehumaniseation for me so i have some idea... you know litter dropper get's raped anally, dogs' fouling foot path scatology fair eviasion removed from human race to exist only as slime, murder equally the entire area for 50 square miles wher ethey were born or riased to be leveled with a sub atomic nuclear blast with the rebuildign costs passed back to the council or local authroity for failign top prevent the mind criminal from being born ...

 

[teuchter]

Fares make up the smaller part of TOC's earnings and profit. The majority comes from taxes, which I do pay, at 40%.

Well, actually I think it depends on the franchise. The proportion varies from one franchise to the other. Anyway, it doesn't really matter.

The motivation for the TOCs to bid for and operate franchises comes from the profit they can make. The more revenue they can collect, the more profitable the operation. The more profit they reckon they can make, the more competitive they will be when they are bidding for or renegotiating the franchise. In other words, the less subsidy they will ask for.

So, the more revenue they can collect the less subsidy they will demand. The more fare dodgers, the less revenue, the more subsidy.

Subsidy comes from the taxpayer.

So who did I steal it from?

The taxpayer, ultimately, along with other fare-payers.

I don't know why you mention the fact that you pay tax. Are you trying to suggest you're only stealing from yourself? I think there are about 30 million tax payers in the UK. So you're stealing about 1/30-millionth of the amount from yourself. So you don't need to feel guilty about that bit.

As I said.

Give a fuck.

Good for you.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Well, actually I think it depends on the franchise. The proportion varies from one franchise to the other. Anyway, it doesn't really matter.

The motivation for the TOCs to bid for and operate franchises comes from the profit they can make. The more revenue they can collect, the more profitable the operation. The more profit they reckon they can make, the more competitive they will be when they are bidding for or renegotiating the franchise. In other words, the less subsidy they will ask for.

So, the more revenue they can collect the less subsidy they will demand. The more fare dodgers, the less revenue, the more subsidy.

Subsidy comes from the taxpayer.



The taxpayer, ultimately, along with other fare-payers.

I don't know why you mention the fact that you pay tax. Are you trying to suggest you're only stealing from yourself? I think there are about 30 million tax payers in the UK. So you're stealing about 1/30-millionth of the amount from yourself. So you don't need to feel guilty about that bit.



Good for you.

erm are you suggesting that the fantasy which you portray above is in any way behldant to he real bidding process for the francise which will always be the lowest bid wins ... regardless of services...

 

[teuchter]

It wasn't.

So you don't defend fare-dodging, then? I'm confused

It's a stupid question, that's why I'm not answering it.

Well, it's an irrelevant question if indeed you are now agreeing that fare-dodging is unacceptable.

 

[sleaterkinney]

So you don't defend fare-dodging, then? I'm confused

I'm giving reasons why it's happening. You can stand there and stomp your feet and call it theft - but that isn't going to solve anything.

 

[teuchter]

erm are you suggesting that the fantasy which you portray above is in any way behldant to he real bidding process for the francise which will always be the lowest bid wins ... regardless of services...

Actually that's not how it works. An operator's performance on other routes is taken into consideration.

Anyway I'm not sure how your comment is relevant to the point I was making.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Actually that's not how it works. An operator's performance on other routes is taken into consideration.

Anyway I'm not sure how your comment is relevant to the point I was making.

actually that's precisely how it works each company goes into a blind bidding process on which they have to prove that they will offer the greatest value for money with regards to any subsidies they are given in order to do this all train companies show that they are going to do it dirt cheap at hwich point they get the contract and volia fairs go up to pay for the cuts after staff have been sacked as it was ever thus....

 

[Cobbles]

fair eviasion removed from human race to exist only as slime, murder equally the entire area for 50 square miles wher ethey were born or riased to be leveled with a sub atomic nuclear blast with the rebuildign costs passed back to the council or local authroity for failign top prevent the mind criminal from being born ...

Now you're talking sense who was it said "tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime"?

 

[untethered]

I just think it's rather symptomatic of the way we are as a society that we accept the calls to clamp down on individuals who fiddle the system in little ways, whilst ignoring (or forgetting) the problems with the system itself or the activities of big players who exploit it in much bigger ways.

Surely the common thread is simply to articulate and practice more ethical ways of living.

Fare dodging, benefit fraud, tax evasion and avoidance, profiteering could all be eliminated tomorrow if the people concerned decided that they weren't going to be the ones running a little (or big) fiddle to their own advantage just because everyone else seems to be at it.

Well, most people aren't at it but the general advice on this thread seems to be that you might as well be.

 

[teuchter]

Surely the common thread is simply to articulate and practice more ethical ways of living.

Fare dodging, benefit fraud, tax evasion and avoidance, profiteering could all be eliminated tomorrow if the people concerned decided that they weren't going to be the ones running a little (or big) fiddle to their own advantage just because everyone else seems to be at it.

Well, most people aren't at it but the general advice on this thread seems to be that you might as well be.

My views exactly.

 

[Roadkill]

Surely the common thread is simply to articulate and practice more ethical ways of living.

Fare dodging, benefit fraud, tax evasion and avoidance, profiteering could all be eliminated tomorrow if the people concerned decided that they weren't going to be the ones running a little (or big) fiddle to their own advantage just because everyone else seems to be at it.

Well, most people aren't at it but the general advice on this thread seems to be that you might as well be.

Nice theory, but moralising rarely makes much difference in the real world - not when people's material interests are at stake.

 

[tim]

I was incandescent.



Are the priorities of South Eastern and South West Trains selling tickets OR issuing fines? A £20 fine is more than the average return fare. Fuckers.

Write to that nice lefty progressive Alex Salmond, the SNP has just got a huge bung from the owners of Stagecoach who run SW trains. Nice to know that all our money, fines and overpriced tickets, is going to a relevant cause

 

[untethered]

Nice theory, but moralising rarely makes much difference in the real world - not when people's material interests are at stake.

Funny you should say that. Don't you think that people's ability to travel is being harmed by the alleged unethical profiteering of the TOCs?

If so, why should they have to get their house in order while a free pass is given to any fare dodger with a half-plausible gripe about the system?