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Trains companies: Selling tickets vs Issuing Fines

sleaterkinney said:
Grow up you idiot. Public transport is a public service and should be priced and operated accordingly. It isn't at the moment.

It's still no excuse for not paying the fare.

I agree that public transport is a natural monopoly and works best when publicly owned. That's got nothing to do with fare evasion, which is hardly an effective protest against private ownership of transport companies, but just a thinly veiled unfair attempt to have other people pay your way.
 
untethered said:
It's still no excuse for not paying the fare.

I agree that public transport is a natural monopoly and works best when publicly owned. That's got nothing to do with fare evasion, which is hardly an effective protest against private ownership of transport companies, but just a thinly veiled unfair attempt to have other people pay your way.
Fare evasion isn't helped by the expensive prices and poor service which is caused by privatisation. Out of the cost of your ticket, how much goes to cover the cost of fare dodgers versus profit for the fat cats?
 
Bahnhof Strasse said:
Yeah I stole it and the fare paying punters subsidised that theft with higher fares yeah?

Or do you have the first idea as to how train companies are actually funded???

Yes, you stole it. Not much question about that.

As to the question of who you stole it from... I imagine you justify it by telling yourself that it all comes out of some wealthy TOC manager's pockets.

Whereas the reality is that any fare evasion inevitably creates a public transport system that generates less revenue and therefore is more expensive to operate. And that will always feed back into the end cost of the service, whether it's to fare payers or to the government (ie. the taxpayer)
in terms of the amount of subsidy they have to put into the system.

You can say that it's up to the TOC to do what they consider necessary to protect their revenue. And it sounds like sadly, they need to be doing more, depending how many people like you there are out there. Leading to the kind of situation described by the original poster in this thread, where, instead of employing people to sell tickets and help out passengers, the train companies instead have to use up resources trying to catch and deter fare dodgers.

To be honest, I'm surprised at how lax many TOC's seem to be about checking tickets. I'm not sure why this is. I suppose that there are certain routes where the expense of employing the extra staff just doesn't add up compared to the amount of revenue that could be recovered. This balance would of course be different if more of us decided to take our chances. In which case the amount of revenue collected would remain about the same, but the outlay on staff would be more. So the cost of running the service would go up and someone would have to pay for it.
 
sleaterkinney said:
Out of the cost of your ticket, how much goes to cover the cost of fare dodgers versus profit for the fat cats?

It's not relevant in the context of a traveller using the train regularly to get to work.

If you want to put it that way, why should other travellers be forced to subsidise Bahnhof Strasse's lifestyle just because they're decent enough to pay for their tickets when he(?) isn't?

Now if someone wanted to organise a mass fare dodging campaign with the specific intention of drawing attention to the problems of privatisation, I could at least regard that as a credible political act. It'd still be theft, though.
 
sleaterkinney said:
Fare evasion isn't helped by the expensive prices and poor service which is caused by privatisation. Out of the cost of your ticket, how much goes to cover the cost of fare dodgers versus profit for the fat cats?

So are you saying that fare dodging on a nationalised railway would be unacceptable, but on a privatised railway, it's OK?
 
teuchter said:
So are you saying that fare dodging on a nationalised railway would be unacceptable, but on a privatised railway, it's OK?
No, I'm saying that you cannot provide a poor service on the railways and expect people to shell out for it.
 
sleaterkinney said:
No, I'm saying that you cannot provide a poor service on the railways and expect people to shell out for it.

Well, you can. People do have a choice, albeit a difficult one in many circumstances.

Businesses can always provide a poor service and expect that people will shell out for it where they consider it to be the best option available.

Just not paying for a service you're happy to consume is theft. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
untethered said:
Do you think that people that pay their fare are doing something wrong?
Where did I say that?.

As a public service, it should be run with all of the public in mind, would you agree?
 
sleaterkinney said:
Where did I say that?.

As a public service, it should be run with all of the public in mind, would you agree?

You're conflating two issues which I believe should be separate.

I'd probably agree in general with your ideas about how public services should be run.

However, I don't agree that one is justified in fare dodging or otherwise evading to pay for a service that one is consuming. If you want to change the system, it is neither a moral nor an effective way to do it. It simply makes an inequitable system even more unfair for the other paying passengers. The "fat cats" as you call them will get their slice of the pie regardless.
 
untethered said:
You're conflating two issues which I believe should be separate.
I am absolutely not, people will respect a service when it's a good one, you have to look at the whole picture.
 
sleaterkinney said:
I am absolutely not, people will respect a service when it's a good one, you have to look at the whole picture.

I have no statistics on the incidence of fare dodging pre/post privatisation but I'd be very surprised if there was a significant difference between the two. The same tired arguments were trotted out for it then, too. Too expensive, slack service, etc.

If you want to take the train, buy a ticket.

If you want to change the country's transport policy, work directly towards that end or at the very least, take your money and custom elsewhere.
 
untethered said:
I have no statistics on the incidence of fare dodging pre/post privatisation but I'd be very surprised if there was a significant difference between the two. The same tired arguments were trotted out for it then, too. Too expensive, slack service, etc.

If you want to take the train, buy a ticket.

If you want to change the country's transport policy, work directly towards that end or at the very least, take your money and custom elsewhere.

Absolutely.
 
sleaterkinney said:
No, I'm saying that you cannot provide a poor service on the railways and expect people to shell out for it.

What is your definition of a "good" service that you'd suddenly be happy to pay for?

You must think the existing service is pretty poor to have valued its worth at zero, despite the fact that it obviously got you to and from London for however many months.

Is the extension of your logic that you reckon no-one should pay for their tickets?
 
untethered said:
Well, you can. People do have a choice, albeit a difficult one in many circumstances.
What choice?

Either:

- buy a car, get stuck in a traffic jam, have a nightmare trying to find somewhere to park, and on top of the costs of buying and maintaining the car and paying for fuel, get stung for congestion charge?

- give up their jobs because they can't get to work?

untethered said:
Businesses can always provide a poor service and expect that people will shell out for it where they consider it to be the best option available.

Just not paying for a service you're happy to consume is theft. Nothing more, nothing less.
Nah, you're totally wrong, people shell out for it not because it's the "best" option, but because it's the least worst.

There is no such thing as a "best" option in this country when it comes to public transport.
 
sleaterkinney said:
Not if it's a public service, which the railways are.
Are Taxis a public service as well? in which case i'd love to see you trying to steal the fare from a taxi driver......
 
sleaterkinney said:
Oh go on then, enlighten me, what makes "the railways" a public service differentiated from taxis?

They are both regulated by a specific authority.

Charging structures are imposed.

They both use infrastructure that's in the public domain.

Anyone who's willing to pay has a right to use them both, subject to terms and conditions of carriage.
 
sleaterkinney said:
Are you serious?

Yes.

You seem to have made the decision that the service you are provided with is not worth the amount of money they are asking you to pay for it. Therefore you must have some notion of what you would be willing to pay for it, and I would be interested to hear your rationale for coming up with this figure.

Although as I said before, you seem currently to be valuing a service that gets you to and from work at zero.

sleaterkinney said:
Only if you're an idiot. :)

How so?

What is the extension of your reasoning, then? If it's OK for you to pay nothing, then why not everyone else?
 
teuchter said:
Yes.

You seem to have made the decision that the service you are provided with is not worth the amount of money they are asking you to pay for it. Therefore you must have some notion of what you would be willing to pay for it, and I would be interested to hear your rationale for coming up with this figure.

Although as I said before, you seem currently to be valuing a service that gets you to and from work at zero.
Nobody in their right mind would agree with the train fares that are being charged at the moment, do you?
teuchter said:
How so?

What is the extension of your reasoning, then? If it's OK for you to pay nothing, then why not everyone else?
Why do you have to 'extend' my reasoning?
 
Cobbles said:
Oh go on then, enlighten me, what makes "the railways" a public service differentiated from taxis?

They are both regulated by a specific authority.

Charging structures are imposed.

They both use infrastructure that's in the public domain.

Anyone who's willing to pay has a right to use them both, subject to terms and conditions of carriage.
Taxi cars are not in the public domain and the driver has the right to refuse to take you.
 
sleaterkinney said:
Nobody in their right mind would agree with the train fares that are being charged at the moment, do you?

Of course everyone would like them to be lower, including me. The question is, how to achieve that.

A less complicated organisational structure to the network as a whole? Maybe.

More public subsidy? Maybe.

Selective reductions for those selfish enough to dodge the fares that everyone else pays? No.


sleaterkinney said:
Why do you have to 'extend' my reasoning?

In order to examine whether your justification for stealing the £2700 stands up or not.

It's a simple question - if it's OK for you, is it OK for everyone else? Why are you avoiding answering it, I wonder?
 
untethered said:
Now if someone wanted to organise a mass fare dodging campaign with the specific intention of drawing attention to the problems of privatisation, I could at least regard that as a credible political act. It'd still be theft, though.

Exactly that happened on First Great Western services last month, in protest against high fares, overcrowding and timetable changes. The company decided against prosecuting any of the fares strikers: they knew damn well that most people agreed with them!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/01/23/nrail23.xml

The rail companies have people over a barrel. For a lot of people living in the commuter belt, trains are the only viable means of getting to work and they have to travel at peak times. They are a captive market, and the train companies milk this for all they're worth. Someone has to pay for the duplication of roles and multiplicity of completely unnecessary expenses inherent in the privatised railway, and for the 'profits' of train operating companies, maintenance contractors and all the rest of them. That someone, of course, is not only the poor old passenger but also the general taxpayer, since the railways now get something like four or five times the subsidy (in real terms) that British Rail did.

In fact, the TOCs do what everyone accuses poor old British Rail of doing: sticking the fares up to price off demand as an alternative to increasing capacity. BR did do this, because it was denied the money to invest and because for much of its existence the assumption was that rail use was in slow but irreversible decline so increasing capacity was unnecessary. We now know differerent. However, there is very little sign that the privatised railway is capable of coping with increases in demand on the scale now predicted. Infrastructure project costs are too high, the franchising system is inefficient and there's precious little central direction over what money is spent on and where - with the exception of the DfT, whose main interest in the railways is in screwing as much money out of franchisees as possible, who in turn pass the cost on to passengers. The whole system is fatally flawed and cannot do what's being asked of it - unlike nationalised railways across much of Europe, which have steadily been investing in new rolling stock, expanding capacity and increasing their traffic. Even in Northern Ireland, where the railways are run by a publicly owned company much like BR, there's been a 30% rise in traffic over the last few years. So much for the idea that privatisation is behind the recent growth in rail traffic!

Frankly, I don't care very much about fare evasion. In principle it's theft, but in practice it costs me a whole lot less money than having to fork out record fares to pay for the 'profits' of some cowboy train operating firm or others, and I know which I find a lot more objectionable. I wonder why other people don't ... but then, it's always easier for simple-minded people to get angry with individuals fiddling the system a little to help them get by, than it is with those who are responsible for the whole shit system in the first place, isn't it?
 
sleaterkinney said:
Taxi cars are not in the public domain and the driver has the right to refuse to take you.

Railway coaches aren't in the public domain either (they're mainly owned by leasing companies) and any operator has the right to refuse travel.

So they are the same really.
 
Roadkill said:
Frankly, I don't care very much about fare evasion. In principle it's theft, but in practice it costs me a whole lot less money than having to fork out record fares to pay for the 'profits' of some cowboy train operating firm or others, and I know which I find a lot more objectionable. I wonder why other people don't ... but then, it's always easier for simple-minded people to get angry with individuals fiddling the system a little to help them get by, than it is with those who are responsible for the whole shit system in the first place, isn't it?

I think that you'll find that it's theft in law as well as in principle.

Why don't you articulate your opinions to the "simple minded" folk on the next train where you fancy stealing a ride and see how quickly they come round to agreeing with your opinion of them and their stupidity in paying the fare. Presumably you won't as (a) you'd speedily be pointed out to nearest conductor (b) it'd actually need some moral fibre to do so.
 
Cobbles said:
Railway coaches aren't in the public domain either (they're mainly owned by leasing companies) and any operator has the right to refuse travel.

So they are the same really.
They have the right to refuse travel on the basis of where you're going?. They have timetables and a guarenteed service from a to b?. No they don't.
 
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