Train operators want 14 extra lines and 40 new stations

[laptop]

As for the geography. You can lay your head down in a train in Vienna and wake up in Amsterdam.
Do the same in Barcelona and wake up in Geneva. Why not do the same in Edinburgh and wake up in Brussels?

I can't even find a picture of the Eurostar sleeper carriages. They're in store in Buckinghamshire, aren't they?

 

[Crispy]

I think they went to canada actually. let me look it up...

yep
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightstar_(train)

 

[Isambard]

Two issues behind that.

1) Loading guage. UK railways are smaller than those of mainland Europe so you'd might well need specially constructed coaches. Obviously 20 odd years is FAR too long to solve the problem that the rest of Europe deals with on a daily basis.

2) The refusal of the UK Government to allow passport control on a train as all of Europe has been doing for the last 50, 80 (?) odd years until of course the abolition of formalised passport controls through the Schengen Agreement.

 

[laptop]

I think they went to canada actually. let me look it up...

yep
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightstar_(train)

Oooh, think I've been in one of them...

 

[teuchter]

Think I posted this on another thread a little while ago but there was talk of reviving the nightstar concept...

http://www.railwatch.org.uk/backtrack/rw098/rw098p10.pdf

sadly it looks like that proposal's died a death too.

 

[davesgcr]

Trouble with sleeper trains is that the payload per carriage (i.e the earning capacity) is low , and the costs are high (staff, the fact you can only use them for one trip a day as opposed to a inter-city train which can hammer up and down between cities all day , add in the overkill on Channel Tunnel safety regs and so on and its uneconomic in the extreme)

Most European overnight sleepers have dissapeared over the last 10 years - apart from very specialised (ergo expensive trains like Inter City Night line in Germany) due to competition from budget air lines and faster day time trains like the ICE / TGV etc.

Tis a very nice way to travel though .......

 

[editor]

That's a bit unfair Ed given the significant expansion of rail services in South East Wales over the last few years.

I've just come back from a week in Cardigan. Nearest railway: Fishguard, 15m, nearest practical station: Carmarthen 30 miles. Nearest station for heading to north Wales: well, there is none really, unless I fancy taking the central Wales line into England and back on a Herculean journey or trying to get up to Aberystwyth which looks a well tricky venture.

 

[davesgcr]

Ed

The Welsh Assemby Govt dont have a bottomless pit of money but they have ...

Spent a bucket on 6 car platforms for much of the Valleys
Paid for the Ebbw Vale line
Boosted the Cambrian - with more / longer trains to come
Introduced a loco hauled , dining car train Holyhead - Cardiff Mon -Friday
Worked hard on infrastructure improvements - like Cardiff area resignalling which will give Queen St 18tph capability and more
Looking at more links to / from West Wales including Fishguard
Encouraged freight use with some good results
Done a lot on stations and encouraged policing prescence and some job creation all round (e.g more traincrew and buffet staff,no job cuts in Wales Rail)

And a fair bit more ....

Railways are terribly emotive - and there is always room for improvement but Wales is pitching for better things - likely to get more track capacity in both North&South Wales , a push for electrifcation right through to Swansea and a slice of the action for better regional links.

Trust me

 

[Crispy]

rebuilding tracks over large distances just isn't on the agenda anywhere. I can't imagine it's much cheaper than building brand new track.

 

[Isambard]

Other thing I forgot to mention is that the GCR main line was built to European loading guage standards with the idea of through trains to mainland Europe one day till some bright spark had the notion to close it......

And Wales has also got the Mastaeg line and the Vale of Glamorgan line reopenend too.
A line on the Camarthen - Cardigan - Aberystwyth route would be lovely but I suspect net gains for travellers in Wales per pound spent would be more achieved by electrification, more trains to Swansea, more through trains on the North Wales line.......

You are right on your night train comments Dave, it's a pity.
I think though the agenda is being set there by profit motive, the airlines and the idea that we HAVE to be somewhere quickly......

 

[Crispy]

That Greenguage proposal for HS2 proposed reusing parts of that trackbed if I recall.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I've just come back from a week in Cardigan. Nearest railway: Fishguard, 15m, nearest practical station: Carmarthen 30 miles. Nearest station for heading to north Wales: well, there is none really, unless I fancy taking the central Wales line into England and back on a Herculean journey or trying to get up to Aberystwyth which looks a well tricky venture.

I have to say, there are big holes in Wales. Monmouth – nearest station of any kind Abergavenny, about 15m. Nearest practical station – Newport, 20+ miles away. That's not good for a town of 10,000 people.

I just looked up Brecon – nearest train station Abergavenny, 20 miles away.

 

[teuchter]

Trouble with sleeper trains is that the payload per carriage (i.e the earning capacity) is low , and the costs are high (staff, the fact you can only use them for one trip a day as opposed to a inter-city train which can hammer up and down between cities all day , add in the overkill on Channel Tunnel safety regs and so on and its uneconomic in the extreme)

Most European overnight sleepers have dissapeared over the last 10 years - apart from very specialised (ergo expensive trains like Inter City Night line in Germany) due to competition from budget air lines and faster day time trains like the ICE / TGV etc.

Tis a very nice way to travel though .......

Yeah it's kind of sad - each time I'm in Europe there are fewer night trains left. The CityNightline trains are pretty good though and in my experience not necessarily that expensive.

The traditional European couchette compartment was a pretty good way of dealing with the problems you mention above - those coaches could earn money during the daytime set up as seated compartments and then convert to sleeping arrangement at night. Also means that if a trip runs overnight and into the daytime as well, it's comfortable for the whole trip.

 

[cybertect]

I just looked up Brecon – nearest train station Abergavenny, 20 miles away.

Merthyr's probably a little closer by a couple of miles, but your point stands.

The problem for Powys is how few people live there. IIRC, it has a population of about 250,000 (roughly the same as the London Borough of Sutton) over an area three times bigger than Greater London.

 

[Isambard]

Good points there T. A standard European couchette car can sleep 48 passengers when full and can potentially be used as daytime seating.

The attraction of sleeping accomodation though is on the longer, less central routes and the stock is in almost permenant use, particuarly where the speeds are slower. Plenty of time the stock arrives at the destination, is cleaned and re-loaded and it is on its way back again. One of my regular trains, the "Excelsior" takes 18 1/2 hours between Cheb and Kosice.

 

[teuchter]

I always marvelled at the ingenuity of some of the European night train operations - several portions start off from different places, are added and subtracted from each other at various points during the night, and end up in different combinations in several different places in the morning (or maybe later that day or even the next day). Quite an achievement really where several different national railways might be involved but still manage to co-ordinate with each other. You don't see this so much these days though, not in Western Europe anyway.

 

[laptop]

I always marvelled at the ingenuity of some of the European night train operations - several portions start off from different places, are added and subtracted from each other at various points during the night, and end up in different combinations in several different places in the morning (or maybe later that day or even the next day). Quite an achievement really where several different national railways might be involved but still manage to co-ordinate with each other. You don't see this so much these days though, not in Western Europe anyway.

It was even more impressive during the Cold War. Steamy Russian sleeper carriage waiting at Hoek van Holland, direct to Leningrad... Wall? What Wall? We've got a railway to run, here...

 

[oneflewover]

I always marvelled at the ingenuity of some of the European night train operations - several portions start off from different places, are added and subtracted from each other at various points during the night, and end up in different combinations in several different places in the morning (or maybe later that day or even the next day). Quite an achievement really where several different national railways might be involved but still manage to co-ordinate with each other. You don't see this so much these days though, not in Western Europe anyway.

Not done a couchette across a border for about 10yrs. Do they steel wheel tap them at the borders?

 

[teuchter]

Last time I remember seeing wheel-tapping was in Bulgaria about five years ago. I don't think it's particularly related to border crossings, just any long journeys.

 

[Isambard]

Not done a couchette across a border for about 10yrs. Do they steel wheel tap them at the borders?

Wheel tapping is still done in eastern Europe, yes.

@ T; last week I took the sleeper from Kosice to Ceske Budeovice:

At Kosice the trains consisted of a section bound for Bratislava, a section bound for Prague, a section bound for CB and a section was that was travelling from Lviv / Kyiv to Vienna.

At Zilina we took on a section that was running Zvolen - Prague but dropped the sections that were travelling to Bratislava and Vienna. At Bohumin we took on a section that was running to Pilsen. At Prerov we dropped off the two Prague sections.

14 hours after leaving Kosice I arrived at Ceske Budeovice and scooted into one of the coaches that had joined us at Bohumin to continue on towards Pilsen.

 

[teuchter]

@ T; last week I took the sleeper from Kosice to Ceske Budeovice:

At Kosice the trains consisted of a section bound for Bratislava, a section bound for Prague, a section bound for CB and a section was that was travelling from Lviv / Kyiv to Vienna.

At Zilina we took on a section that was running Zvolen - Prague but dropped the sections that were travelling to Bratislava and Vienna. At Bohumin we took on a section that was running to Pilsen. At Prerov we dropped off the two Prague sections.

14 hours after leaving Kosice I arrived at Ceske Budeovice and scooted into one of the coaches that had joined us at Bohumin to continue on towards Pilsen.

 

[teuchter]

The last trip like that I did was (if I remember correctly) from Bucharest to Thessaloniki. I showed up at Bucharest station expecting some sort of inmpressive international train but all that was in the appropriate platform was one coach, with an ancient diesel attached to the front. After checking that this really was the right train I got on board and it then proceeded to rattle off across endless fields on a slightly wobbly single track.

Of course, at a later point in the journey that same coach was part of a lengthy train with buffet cars and all the rest of it, and I think I had to move to a different carriage at some point but the next morning I arrived in Thessaloniki without having to step off the train once.

 

[agricola]

Ed

The Welsh Assemby Govt dont have a bottomless pit of money but they have ...

Spent a bucket on 6 car platforms for much of the Valleys
Paid for the Ebbw Vale line
Boosted the Cambrian - with more / longer trains to come
Introduced a loco hauled , dining car train Holyhead - Cardiff Mon -Friday
Worked hard on infrastructure improvements - like Cardiff area resignalling which will give Queen St 18tph capability and more
Looking at more links to / from West Wales including Fishguard
Encouraged freight use with some good results
Done a lot on stations and encouraged policing prescence and some job creation all round (e.g more traincrew and buffet staff,no job cuts in Wales Rail)

And a fair bit more ....

Railways are terribly emotive - and there is always room for improvement but Wales is pitching for better things - likely to get more track capacity in both North&South Wales , a push for electrifcation right through to Swansea and a slice of the action for better regional links.

Trust me

Not wanting to start an argument here, but it does annoy one somewhat that so much of the WAGs effort seems to be aimed at South Wales. I mean, we have one line (and the line to Blaenau, and Wrexham-Bidston I suppose) - and thats not really ours, it just goes along the coast.

As for opening new lines, I would like to see Ruabon - Barmouth and Denbigh - Chester reopened, you could probably justify both.

 

[Isambard]

Wrexham-Bidston I suppose) - and thats not really ours.

Ours?

We doing national-racial purity now as to where there needs to be investment in public transport?
Everywhere else in Europe people are eagerly doing cross border investment in infrastructure and services.

 

[agricola]

Ours?

We doing national-racial purity now as to where there needs to be investment in public transport?
Everywhere else in Europe people are eagerly doing cross border investment in infrastructure and services.

I think you have misunderstood - utterly - my point.

North Wales has one line that goes through it, one branch line off that and the Borderlands line. There are few other parts of the country (and you can take that to mean either Wales or the UK as a whole) that need investment in rail transport more (as an aside, take a look at this list of towns in Wales with no railway station - then try and guess where the vast majority of them are). South Wales has seen stations and lines reopened, all I would like to see is those of us in the North benefit from some investment as well.

Finally, I am not against cross-border transport - as you should have realised when I advocated reopening the old Denbigh (which is in Wales) to Chester (which is in England) line.

 

[Isambard]

Yeah, saw you added that afterwards.

there#s always going to be peipheral areas in any entity and I just suspect that there will be more bang for the buck with investment in South East Wales.
I'm certainly not saying there is no need in Mid or North Wales, theres a string of examples above that prove that.

Where there are closed likes I think it is vital to stop development across those lines that hampers any future re-opening becasue of the high cost of construction.