Traffic enforcement cameras

[Janh]

PCNs - where's the justice?

...Sounds like there's a complete absence of any kind of due process here...why am I surprised?

I'm with your scepticism on this and I feel aspects of this system really trouble me because of the seeming avoidance of natural justice. I would advise that if more people challenge the scrappy nature in which PCN's are issued, then we may get better justice rather than the fishing exercise that some PCN's appear to be.

For example, I get sent a picture attached to a PCN showing I'm turning right and am told in the notice that it's a no right turn junction. Now the picture I'm sent doesn't identify the junction or whether the right turn is prohibited. Which you might say is not a big deal if you trust the guy who's observing this junction and knows what he's about, but let's put that assumption on hold.

My difficulty is that the council (Westminster in this case) sent a PCN without sufficient evidence to tell me where it happened. This prevents me from mounting a defence. The majority I'm sure aren't bothered with this and pay. The council depend on this fear/guilt response for a smooth running stream of revenue.

My view is don't pay automatically. Ask for more evidence if it's not clear where the offence/contravention happened and what street sign or law was contravened. If we don't challenge these they'll be able to send out half-baked PCN's and catch the uncritical, fearful and darn right busy.

I hope that with more challenges in the system (and I'm not talking engaging with the formal appeal system here) the council spends more time/resources replying to Mr and Ms Public's legitimate claims for natural justice and thereby maybe amend their procedures toward fairness. This way we may get to a point where we see beyond the cash generation exercise.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

I say more funding for traffic police...it's seen as a bit of a non-job, but they clear up loads of serious crimes too......cameras is lazy policing IMO

 

[Janh]

Agree, and they can apply discretion which the PCN machinery isn't geared towards.

 

[cybertect]

I sent this to Transport for London yesterday. I await their reply

Hi,

I have been speaking to one of your telephone line assistants named <XXXXX> this morning and he has suggested that I should send my questions to you by email.

As a motorist in London, I am aware of your current "No. Know" campaign. I have read the PDF leaflet, but it seems that there are some areas where it is lacking in detail.

I would be grateful if you could provide me with some guidance on the correct procedure or likely outcome in the following common scenarios which I have myself encountered in my experience of driving in London.

----

Bus Lanes

Your Guidance states:

"Keeping buses moving is an essential part of improving public transport and reducing
traffic congestion. All of London’s bus lanes are clearly identified by road lines and
signage. Hours of bus lane operation – i.e. when it is not allowed for other vehicles to
drive in them – are identified on the roadside signs. Operation times may vary, and if
there is no time restriction on the sign, the bus lane is operational at all times.
You can drive in some bus lanes at certain times – but always make sure you check
the signs for time restrictions."

1. I am driving along a road where a Bus Lane is in force. A uniformed Police Officer explicitly directs me to enter the Bus Lane. If I enter the Bus Lane am I liable to a Penalty Notice?

2. I am stationary in traffic with a bus stopped in a Bus Lane behind me and to my left. A police car approaches from the rear with sirens sounding and lights flashing. I might assume that the lights and sirens are an implicit direction for me to make way, but I cannot see the driver to be sure.

If I enter the Bus Lane to allow the Police car to pass would I be liable to a Penalty Notice?

3. A similar situation to scenario 2. However, in this case it is an Ambulance or Fire Engine that is on the emergency call. Since neither Ambulance nor Fire Crews have, to the best of my knowledge, the power to direct traffic, if I were to enter the Bus Lane to allow either vehicle to pass would I be liable to a Penalty Notice?

4. I am driving along a road where a Bus Lane is in force on my side of the road. There is a bus stopped at a bus stop on the opposite side of the road. A bus stopped behind this one pulls out suddenly without indicating into my path and I have no choice but to enter the Bus Lane to my left in order to prevent a collision occurring. Would I be liable to a Penalty Notice?

----

Yellow Box Junctions

Your guidance states:

"Stopping in a yellow box junction causes congestion and delays. You must not enter a yellow box junction until your exit or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right."


I would ask similar questions as above in relation to Box Junctions. i.e. am I permitted to stop at a Box Junction when

- explicitly directed to do so by a Police officer?
- in order to allow passage of a Police vehicle showing emergency lights and sirens?
- in order to allow passage of an Ambulance or Fire vehicle showing emergency lights and sirens?
- in order to avoid an accident occurring?

Additionally, I would like to know my liability if, at the point of entering a Box Junction my exit ahead is clear, but while crossing it another vehicle passes by me in another lane, cuts me up and occupies the exit that I had intended to use, leaving me no option but to stop on the Box Junction.

Your guidance notes (http://www.tfl.gov.uk/streets/downloads/pdf/red-route/TE-leaflet-final.pdf) state "You must not enter a yellow box junction until your exit or lane is clear." I am interested in what happens if my exit becomes blocked *after* I have entered a yellow box although it was clear at the time I entered it.

I ask the questions separately for Box Junctions because they are not traffic offences, but de-criminalised contraventions, which means I do not have an option to go directly to Court to challenge the Penalty Notice and different rules apply to the standards of evidence admissible to an Adjudicator than apply in Court.

----

I am most interested in the principles of whether I have a defence against a Penalty Charge notice on the grounds that I was taking reasonable action

- to comply with other laws
- to uphold a general duty of care to other road users and the population at large
- when I am prevented from complying fully through no fault of my own

Alternatively, is it your view that there an absolute requirement on me not to drive in a Bus Lane while it is force or to stop on a Box Junction unless I am turning right and I am prevented from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right, which is the guidance published in your leaflet.

I must stress that I do not ask these questions frivolously, but from a genuine interest in ensuring that I drive in the correct manner.

I will also add that I am not currently aware of any ongoing penalty notices issued to me by TfL.

Regards,

<me>

 

[cybertect]

Now the picture I'm sent doesn't identify the junction or whether the right turn is prohibited. Which you might say is not a big deal if you trust the guy who's observing this junction and knows what he's about, but let's put that assumption on hold.

My difficulty is that the council (Westminster in this case) sent a PCN without sufficient evidence to tell me where it happened. This prevents me from mounting a defence.

I'm sorry. That's totally out of order. You're right to fight it.

 

[Janh]

Cyber, good luck with your letter keep us posted of any response. Your questions point to the failing of cameras: they are a blunt instrument. When I get pulled over by a copper I can try to reason with them and appeal to their discretion and knowledge of local conditions. I can't engage a camera operative in the same way.

 

[detective-boy]

My difficulty is that the council (Westminster in this case) sent a PCN without sufficient evidence to tell me where it happened. This prevents me from mounting a defence.

If that's the case, challenge it.

On the basis of natural justice (which will apply to non-criminal PCNs just as much as any criminal proceedings), you must be provided with sufficient detail of the offence alleged. As a minimum that should include time, date and place. There would also be a need to show proper signage (by which I mean legally accurate - it's all defined in tiny detail in the regulations) though I think they would be entitled to assume it were correct unless you went and saw it wasn't and raised a challenge. In a summons for the offence, I would always expect an officer to include details of checking and describing the relevant signage.

 

[detective-boy]

Agree, and they can apply discretion which the PCN machinery isn't geared towards.

It's biggest failing (and the biggest failing of the automatons employed as council parking attendants - "Computer says No" (or, rather, "COmputer says offence") mentality at it's absolute worst )

 

[detective-boy]

I sent this to Transport for London yesterday. I await their reply

Good questions. I suspect their answers will be basically - absolute offence. I think you probably have a defence to both for a uniformed PC specifically directing traffic but it is far less clear cut (and would probably fail) for the implicit direction of blue lights of a police car behind you (if it happened to me I would fight it but wouldn't bet on the outcome!). There would not be a defence for ambulance or fire brigade.

The avoiding of collisions bit is also interesting. I am not aware of any specific defences written in to the legislation giving a defence of necessity (sometimes called the Duress of circumstances), but there is a general concept of that defence in criminal law. This, for instance, has been held to acquit someone of dangerous driving, trying to escape an assault, or driving whilst disqualified in a medical emergency. I think it was pribably applied by Mr Loophole in getting Goldenballs off speeding when he was fearing the paparazzi. I think you would stand a good chance of being acquitted of a minor offence in order to prevent a more serious consequence on this basis. It will be interesting to see if the TfL fuckwits agree!

 

[detective-boy]

I can't engage a camera operative in the same way.

You could invest in a selection of placards to deploy from the driver's window in appropriate circumstances ... "I am just getting out of the way of this police car", "Oh my God, did you see that bus drive straight at me", "I wasn't paying attention. Please note that it is actually my Croatian au pair (whose address in Croatia, to where she is returning tomorrow, is entirely unknown to me) driving ..."

 

[cybertect]

Good questions. I suspect their answers will be basically - absolute offence. I think you probably have a defence to both for a uniformed PC specifically directing traffic but it is far less clear cut (and would probably fail) for the implicit direction of blue lights of a police car behind you (if it happened to me I would fight it but wouldn't bet on the outcome!). There would not be a defence for ambulance or fire brigade.

...

It will be interesting to see if the TfL fuckwits agree!

Yep. I was going to wait for their response and if TfL say I'll receive a PCN for ducking into a Bus Lane or box junction, then copy it to the Met, LFB and LAS to see what their reaction is

In ethical terms, I'd maybe be more inclined to move over for an ambulance or fire engine than a police car as there's a higher probability that someone's life may be at stake.

No actual response yet beyond the auto-reply. I'm wondering if they think I'm a mischievous solicitor or journo in search of a story. I certainly got that impression from the guy on the phone

 

[Janh]

You could invest in a selection of placards to deploy from the driver's window in appropriate circumstances ... "I am just getting out of the way of this police car", "Oh my God, did you see that bus drive straight at me", "I wasn't paying attention. Please note that it is actually my Croatian au pair (whose address in Croatia, to where she is returning tomorrow, is entirely unknown to me) driving ..."

You know I like your thinking. I was thinking about masking my number plate in some way, then thought I'd just take it off that'll frustrate the buggers, and if stopped saying "Oh officer I didn't notice it had fallen off!"

 

[cybertect]

You could invest in a selection of placards to deploy from the driver's window in appropriate circumstances ... "I am just getting out of the way of this police car", "Oh my God, did you see that bus drive straight at me", "I wasn't paying attention. Please note that it is actually my Croatian au pair (whose address in Croatia, to where she is returning tomorrow, is entirely unknown to me) driving ..."

PMSL

 

[detective-boy]

Yep. I was going to wait for their response and if TfL say I'll receive a PCN for ducking into a Bus Lane or box junction, then copy it to the Met, LFB and LAS to see what their reaction is

Driver training in the Met has already changed - they used to be advised to go down the outside of stationary traffic, with cars moving into the bus lane and kerb, as that was safest. Now they are taught to take the bus lane themselves (even though it is more dangerous) because fuckwit council staff are issuing PCNs and there is no legal defence.

 

[detective-boy]

You know I like your thinking. I was thinking about masking my number plate in some way, then thought I'd just take it off that'll frustrate the buggers, and if stopped saying "Oh officer I didn't notice it had fallen off!"

Fantastic! Petty minded enforcement causes law abiding people to break the law. Way to go! (There's loads of this going on: cloned plates, failure to register vehicles, registration to duff addresses, wrong digits deliberately put into numbers, deliberately dirty / broken plates, lost plates ...)