Toyko knifeman goes berserk: kills 7, injures 10

[gorski]

You only stated that it was 'universal' after the post you made about alienation blah blah blah. If it's universal how is it relevant in a thread about what's happening in Japan and how were we supposed to guess?

Oh, well... Another intellectually bright star....

I also said that there are relevant differences, civilisationally and culturally, so alienation can take different forms, ergo... Oh, never mind, it's a bit much for your little brain...

And why is personal experience cobblers? Is your experience of the UK irrelevant because it's not written about in your sociological and philosophical books?

Because, if that's the only thing you have to go on - it is by definition way too partial. If not tested, if not... Oh, here I go again. Whatever the fuck for? If you were able to understand you wouldn't have asked such a daft question.

Did it ever occur to you that some of those "dusty, dead books" may actually have been written after a lot of energetic studying, that they may be research based, that they are vigorously verified, tested, critically scrutinised, that they have come out of many a lively debate at the highest level, sometimes as a lifelong commitment etc. etc.?

[Too much? I know, I know....]

Guess what, people only write about sociological and philosophical bullshit in books about sociological and philosophical bullshit. They have to fill them with something.

Yeah, like with stuff THEY have NOT experienced, whereas you have... So, if you weren't there with them - they are worthless, because you have "no ears to hear it"...

What is the alienation you are banging on about anyway?

Oh, I dunno... Say, when one doesn't feel in any way obliged to others, so one takes a cunt like action against anyone and everyone, as one pleases... when one isn't in any meaningful and humanly warm way connected to others, oneself and nature, when one feels unrecognised for one's talents and efforts, not taken into consideration, when one feels exploited, when one sees one's body only as a vehicle, one's life's work only as a means to a shopping or perhaps killing spree, whichever comes first, a vehicle for amassing wealth, stacking up stuff, putting ticks above one's bed and so forth. You know, not being capable and/or willing to recognise, respect and consider others or one's own perfectly legitimate bodily needs or nature or following generations etc. etc. etc.

So, disconnected, disjointed, powerless regarding one's own life, seeing others and his own body and capabilities only as means to an end but not as end in themselves, meaningful and with a purpose of their own etc.

It's when love for Humanity [in you and as such] becomes dull or turns to resentment or even hatred, when one can't be bothered, when it's all fear and "conquer or be conquered" based, when it all turns to an either meaningless drag or hedonistic escapist exercise or exploitative testosterone driven search for dominance and power - sometimes even ending in a carnage of this sort...

Enough?

You sound like a bit of a nobX10. Say hello to your Japanese acquaintances/friends for me.

I doubt you can even begin understanding just what sort of a nob you are, though...

And my Japanese acquaintances are laughing their heads off at your "deep, critically minded and thoughtful comments", saying that rarely have they seen such uncritical, apologetic bullshit about "contemporary" Japan and its youth as a whole...

 

[rutabowa]

woah, actually you are just totally mental, i am getting out of here. stay away from knives.

 

[gorski]

...twat...

 

[chico enrico]

it's kinda true... i mean if you go out it london you don't get a feel for what the majority of england is like

yea, fair point.

 

[chico enrico]

Oh, well... Another intellectually bright star

I also said that there are relevant differences, civilisationally and culturally, so alienation can take different forms, ergo... Oh, never mind, it's a bit much for your little brain...



Because, if that's the only thing you have to go on - it is by definition way too partial. If not tested, if not... Oh, here I go again. Whatever the fuck for? If you were able to understand you wouldn't have asked such a daft question.

Did it ever occur to you that some of those "dusty, dead books" may actually have been written after a lot of energetic studying, that they may be research based, that they are vigorously verified, tested, critically scrutinised, that they have come out of many a lively debate at the highest level, sometimes as a lifelong commitment etc. etc.?

[Too much? I know, I know....]



Yeah, like with stuff THEY have NOT experienced, whereas you have... So, if you weren't there with them - they are worthless, because you have "no ears to hear it"...



Oh, I dunno... Say, when one doesn't feel in any way obliged to others, so one takes a cunt like action against anyone and everyone, as one pleases... when one isn't in any meaningful and humanly warm way connected to others, oneself and nature, when one feels unrecognised for one's talents and efforts, not taken into consideration, when one feels exploited, when one sees one's body only as a vehicle, one's life's work only as a means to a shopping or perhaps killing spree, whichever comes first, a vehicle for amassing wealth, stacking up stuff, putting ticks above one's bed and so forth. You know, not being capable and/or willing to recognise, respect and consider others or one's own perfectly legitimate bodily needs or nature or following generations etc. etc. etc.

So, disconnected, disjointed, powerless regarding one's own life, seeing others and his own body and capabilities only as means to an end but not as end in themselves, meaningful and with a purpose of their own etc.

It's when love for Humanity [in you and as such] becomes dull or turns to resentment or even hatred, when one can't be bothered, when it's all fear and "conquer or be conquered" based, when it all turns to an either meaningless drag or hedonistic escapist exercise or exploitative testosterone driven search for dominance and power - sometimes even ending in a carnage of this sort...

Enough?



I doubt you can even begin understanding just what sort of a nob you are, though...

And my Japanese acquaintances are laughing their heads off at your "deep, critically minded and thoughtful comments", saying that rarely have they seen such uncritical, apologetic bullshit about "contemporary" Japan and its youth as a whole...

gorski, are you, like, mental?

NB: You're argument is flaweed from the start as it is based on regarding empirical sociological research as an accurate reflection on social value systems and social/economic relationships. Starting with a hypothesis which the work validates/refutes.

Just go to Japan, stay there for a while then come back and see if your experience tallies with what you've read about. in books.

 

[gorski]

Nope, quite sane, thanx, just don't like this arrogant shite, like when twats come to teach me the ABC of thinking...

Seriously speaking: this anti-intellectual and quasi-solipsist attitude does sound quite mental to me...

If you can't understand something - it's either wrong or it doesn't exist...

Right...

 

[chico enrico]

Nope, quite sane, thanx, just don't like this arrogant shite, like when twats come to teach me the ABC of thinking...

Seriously speaking: this anti-intellectual and quasi-solipsist attitude does sound quite mental to me...

If you can't understand something - it's either wrong or it doesn't exist...

hmmm, objection m'lud, you do appear to still be fairly mental to me.

incidentally, how much time have you spent in Japan and where? I've only stayed in Tokyo and visited Osaka, Yokahama and Kyoto myself so appreciate my perspective may be fairly unrepresentative.

 

[rutabowa]

maybe we could get a bibliography of the socioliogical and philosophical studies on alienation in modern Japan that have been obviously been studied so hard to come up with such a certain theory, that would be interesting

 

[8ball]

It's cos of the pointy bits on the ends of knives - that's what gives them ideas . . .

 

[gorski]

CE and R - WTF are you two on about?

Which parts do you object to exactly?

 

[chico enrico]

CE and R - WTF are you two on about?

Which parts do you object to exactly?

the parts which, having only read in books, you are arguing to be irrefutable fact which we find to be at extreme variance from our personal experiences of Japan and Japanese people, perhaps?

 

[gorski]

Don't bullshit and don't waffle, stop escaping the Q, as I answered yours: which bits do you object to so strongly EXACTLY and WHY?!?

 

[chico enrico]

you are clearly either a mentalist or have a 1965 'Eastern Studies' sociology textbook under your belt which is shortly to be republished.

 

[chico enrico]

So, luckily I have critically minded Japanese acquaintances/friends and don't have to listen to utter cobblers, such as this "personal experience" nonsense...

call me old fashioned, but i kinda prefer to make up my own mind about a country and its inhabitants from my times there and accounts of lives from my friends who have lived and worked there all their lives.

still, i'm sure you've read some book which will tell me a beer costs £17, everyone works from 2am till midnight before returning home to the 2x2 meter bamboo box they share with 20 of their work-colleagues, and they have to get written permission from their boss before they smile, so i'll just defer to your infinitely more informed knowledge

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Oh, well... Another intellectually bright star....
I also said that there are relevant differences, civilisationally and culturally, so alienation can take different forms, ergo... Oh, never mind, it's a bit much for your little brain...
Because, if that's the only thing you have to go on - it is by definition way too partial. If not tested, if not... Oh, here I go again. Whatever the fuck for? If you were able to understand you wouldn't have asked such a daft question.
Did it ever occur to you that some of those "dusty, dead books" may actually have been written after a lot of energetic studying, that they may be research based, that they are vigorously verified, tested, critically scrutinised, that they have come out of many a lively debate at the highest level, sometimes as a lifelong commitment etc. etc.?
[Too much? I know, I know....]
Yeah, like with stuff THEY have NOT experienced, whereas you have... So, if you weren't there with them - they are worthless, because you have "no ears to hear it"...
Oh, I dunno... Say, when one doesn't feel in any way obliged to others, so one takes a cunt like action against anyone and everyone, as one pleases... when one isn't in any meaningful and humanly warm way connected to others, oneself and nature, when one feels unrecognised for one's talents and efforts, not taken into consideration, when one feels exploited, when one sees one's body only as a vehicle, one's life's work only as a means to a shopping or perhaps killing spree, whichever comes first, a vehicle for amassing wealth, stacking up stuff, putting ticks above one's bed and so forth. You know, not being capable and/or willing to recognise, respect and consider others or one's own perfectly legitimate bodily needs or nature or following generations etc. etc. etc.
So, disconnected, disjointed, powerless regarding one's own life, seeing others and his own body and capabilities only as means to an end but not as end in themselves, meaningful and with a purpose of their own etc.
It's when love for Humanity [in you and as such] becomes dull or turns to resentment or even hatred, when one can't be bothered, when it's all fear and "conquer or be conquered" based, when it all turns to an either meaningless drag or hedonistic escapist exercise or exploitative testosterone driven search for dominance and power - sometimes even ending in a carnage of this sort...
Enough?
I doubt you can even begin understanding just what sort of a nob you are, though...
And my Japanese acquaintances are laughing their heads off at your "deep, critically minded and thoughtful comments", saying that rarely have they seen such uncritical, apologetic bullshit about "contemporary" Japan and its youth as a whole...

Firstly - Holy shit! You really are completely mental!
Secondly - Seriously, what the hell is wrong with you?

 

[gorski]

Or you... Can you muster a single cohesive sentence on the subject?

Weaklings and wankers...

 

[chico enrico]

Or you... Can you muster a single cohesive sentence on the subject?

Weaklings and wankers...

from you, gorski, i can live with that

 

[chico enrico]

On a serious notw, one thing i have never had adequstely explained to me is quite how japan (or rather Tokyo as i'm not too familiar with other places) can have developed such a 'crime free' society?

I always find it bizarre going into a bar or club to see groups of people just leave their purses, mobile phones etc on a table and go up for a dance.

how you can go into a designer shop and there not be security tags on £2,000 bags...

how i can get drunken and leave my video camera in its case slung over the back of a chair, forget about it only to remember with horror two hours later...get a frantic taxi ride back and find it still there, with a group of new customers sitting on the same chairs, looking surprised when i showerd my delight and amazement it was still there.

that does always strike me as strange and isn't something i have seen addressed in any of the books i've read on japanese society and culture.

(though i'm sure gorki might have some illuminating book on the subject suggesting anyone who steals anything has their hcnds cut off and is then banished to a secret island to live ouit the rest of their limbless life in contemplation of their anti-social action)

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Or you... Can you muster a single cohesive sentence on the subject?

Weaklings and wankers...

I beg your pardon? You can talk. Did you have a look at you last post? Almost every section tails off into "you wouldn't understand", "etc etc" or is quite simply madness. Your other posts are nothing more than childish bragging about your superiority over everyone else because 'you read a book on it', followed by a frenzied attack of smilies and playground taunts.

Yes, I have read books on Japan (I had to for a job I worked on for the best part of a year on the study of Japan, it's culture, history, and its language, it's how I ended up meeting my Japanese wife of eight years) and no I don't base everything I say on my own experience nor did I ever say that. I am basing my opinion on, what I have read, the Japanese I have interviewed, what I have watched on Japanese TV, read in Japanese papers and yes, what I have 'experienced' of Japan myself (which I have always considered to be the most enlightening). To not count this any being any relevance at all would be simply foolish.
The bollocks written about Japan, and I'm sure it happens with other counties though I have no actual knowledge of this (apart from the UK from a Japanese perspective), and the reality of what it is like has been something I have always found rather fascinating. Still I have to admit it was always possible to find some rent a bullshitter that would say anything you wanted to tie feudal time to contemporary society if needed, but I find this is the case with almost everything I work on and nothing special at all.

How about getting back on topic.

 

[gorski]

'Ere's a litewl problem, righ'...

So, if it ain't your experience expressed in your words and your words alone - it simply isn't experience, since it's somebody else's and hence "just theory". Whereas your experience is - by definition - not just theory but "very real", I suppose.

And what is the difference between those books, i.e. other people's experience expressed in words and your experience also expressed in words in a thread on a forum? Well, it's somebody else's experience.

Just how stupid can you two get? How self-centred and simply dumb, twatish and low can you go?!?

Anybody stating that "some book", from some serious thinker and researcher, is not "experience" - why, it is in written form - weeeell, that is just inane. It's utterly unintelligent and intellectually worthelss, and because it's anti-intellectual to the bone it is lazy! Spiritually lazy.

And just how narcissistic and idiotic it is... For crying out loud: what the fuck are you two doing here but expressing your experiences in words? And I mean, even you should know it is anecdotal, what you claim. Or should I say, your refusal to think any further than "I don't get ya, maaaaan, it's too fuckin' 'ard finkin' abou' all them long sentences, maaaaan"...

Ergo this is my qualified judgement on such vomitting: you poor sods.

Over and out on that little issue.

So, indeed, how about getting back to the topic of where does that shite come from? And I don't think that "it has nothing to do with utter alienation Japanese style" is a serious way of getting into it and thinking critically on the topic. I stated my position, whereas some here have said fuck all can only go "I don't get ya, maaaaan".... After asking "which part exactly" one only gets "it ain't like tha', man... I don't fink it's tha'"...

So, what the fuck is it, then? Which parts don't you agree EXACTLY?!? And what do you suggest lies behind the reported "rise in such crime/phenomena"?!?

 

[gorski]

The bit about Habermas as being a "bullshiter" spouting nonsense about Japanese society is just priceless.

Having just come from Japan and landed in Zagreb, where I studied at the time, his theories were challenged, in a friendly manner, by some of my professors, in the light of such a specific experience. He frankly responded by saying that such questions "stab his theory [he was talking of universalisable ideas and actions stemming from those] right through the heart".

And what does he say on the topic?

Well, Japan is a demi-feudal [also meaning demi-modern], strictly hierarchical society, where everything - for a serious person, anyhow - is also having "the other dimension" [other than the superficial one], since it is still being "lit up from above" by the feudal customary [so called "traditional"] behaviour.

And that is in spite of having Kantian, Western laws [written by Americans], just like "us"!!!

From corporate and political structures of such societies all the way to the family and individual one's - things are not quite straight forward, actually getting quite complicated and rather complex.

And so for you it seems that here is the bone of contention?

Well, funny that, because my Japanese friends say he is bang on the money. What little I "know" also confirms that. I know not of any better "backward or advanced little theory".

The phenomena I wrote earlier about can only be explained in those terms.

Whereas you offer nothing in terms of your own "qualified judgement".

So, for once, let's hear it for da boys and gals: "wha' do you fink, fo' reawl"?

 

[gorski]

In response to the "deep question" on alienation:

Andrew E. Barshay. "The Social Sciences in Modern Japan: The Marxian and Modernist Tradition", a review by McVeigh, named "Different Roads to Modernity and Developmental Alienation", is here http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=60601104942413


I found this to be quite interesting: "Japan: The Intellectual Foundations of Modern Japanese Politics" by Tetsuo Najita - http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...g=PS_IuA63MbUDZ3FkTj9GreLwUb8&hl=en#PPA122,M1

Different views from a legal perspective: http://www.law.berkeley.edu/centers/ilr/pub_sho_sato_2005/nottage_translatingtanase.pdf

Those paradigms also led to divergent views in Japan as opposed to the United States. While Japan became confident that it had turned the tension to its social and economic advantage, the United States became increasingly critical about what it perceived (and sometimes certainly experienced) as the closed nature of “Japan, Inc.” This standoff has lessened somewhat, as the deregulation movement – underpinning, and underpinned by, the economic rationalism paradigm – has not only maintained momentum in the United States, but also found increasing traction in Japan since the financial crisis since the late 1990s. Nonetheless, Japanese law and society have certainly not become Americanized.

Also, for instance, see Note 34... quite illuminating, while we are on the subject, I thought...

http://www.jstor.org/pss/178166 - Nakane's and Cole's books reviewed

Even those who focus on similarities by default admit the old structures being there and influencing everything in a variety of ways: http://www.questia.com/googleSchola...s17SvjGW6plyMKTpL!1098828759?docId=5001335541

Fukutake's conclusion: "a democratic transformation of Japanese society has yet to occur" [Cohen] - http://www.jstor.org/pss/2779355

On "Japanese Political Culture: Change and Continuity", conformity and competition etc. etc.: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...ig=ZJIVJYQlUvk2tvf9i5BYNa6nPeg&hl=en#PPR16,M1
Just look at this little "idealist", as opposed to a "dreamer", in his own words, a "harsh liberal critic of the Japanese society, Takeshi Ishida.

In conclusion: from within Japan itself [never mind the "Westerners"] one can see quite clearly a critical analysis of its inner contradictions, an almost schizoid structure in need of some serious re-thinking...

And it's quite "mental", aye...

 

[rutabowa]

On a serious notw, one thing i have never had adequstely explained to me is quite how japan (or rather Tokyo as i'm not too familiar with other places) can have developed such a 'crime free' society?

i dunno we had some tshirts nicked from our little stall! i think that was more drunken enthusiasm than maliciousness though.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

The bit about Habermas as being a "bullshiter" spouting nonsense about Japanese society is just priceless.
:

OK I'm not going to go though all of your naive teenage philosophy/sociology student tosh, but this bit proves you are not even reading my posts. I don't even know who Habermas is FFS nor do I care. You are making your own connections where you see fit, much like the references from books it appears you consider gospel.

You have now racked up three C C C C Crazy posts in a row and your Japanese acquaintances have since become fully fledged friends. I can only assume this is because you have been calling them day and night as they seem to be able to make a comment on all of nut job posts.

Oh my god, you are a teenage philosophy/sociology student aren't you? a teenage student emo that has sliced their own pseudo intellectual jugular, spouting fountains of uncontrollable bollocks . . . . I thought I recognised the style, why god have I been paying any attention to you and your mad ramblings?

Over and out.

 

[gorski]

OK I'm not going to go though all of your naive teenage philosophy/sociology student tosh, but this bit proves you are not even reading my posts. I don't even know who Habermas is FFS nor do I care. You are making your own connections where you see fit, much like the references from books it appears you consider gospel.

You have now racked up three C C C C Crazy posts in a row and your Japanese acquaintances have since become fully fledged friends. I can only assume this is because you have been calling them day and night as they seem to be able to make a comment on all of nut job posts.

Oh my god, you are a teenage philosophy/sociology student aren't you? a teenage student emo that has sliced their own pseudo intellectual jugular, spouting fountains of uncontrollable bollocks . . . . I thought I recognised the style, why god have I been paying any attention to you and your mad ramblings?

Over and out.

Jeez, talk about being mental...

You're obviously not informed in the area I come from, so instead of stating where you come from exactly, so we can have a proper discussion - you come and spit on other people's experiences and research/studies etc. How very teenage of you...

I posted many Japanese authors above who do not subscribe to your simple-minded nonsense. You're still not getting it. Very well. Mad ramblings in that case squares precisely with your teenage, testosterone driven attitude, sonny...

Heh, me teenager? Who knows, by your attitude I could possibly be your dad... But unlike you, however old physically, I will always be spiritually youthful, i.e. interested in hearing about stuff I haven't considered, open to learning from anyone who comes up with something coherent and properly based. Not that it would mean anything to you, as you seem to clearly not very well educated, so... never mind...

So, instead of "grow up", this time I'll tell you "get [spiritually] younger"!!!

 

[rutabowa]

well maybe it is all of us who are intellectually inferior and will never understand your brilliant theories, or maybe it is that all your posts have been incoherent, abusive rants mixed up with half-digested, misunderstood ideas and out-of-context quotes you got from the internet. Either way i don't think any communication is possible so we should probably all give up.

 

[gorski]

Don't you get tired of constant posturing by means of this"general attack" bullshit, never actually stating what you object to and so we never get to see what you understood of it, so we can have a debate.

In short: you're a coward and a weakling! I posted what I thought! Now, either be constructive or just have the decency to shut up and fuck off!

Already!

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

this thread already has reached the critical level of insulting smilies.... i propose all further mudslinging be carried out on a new thread designed for that purpose...

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

this thread already has reached the critical level of insulting smilies.... i propose all further mudslinging be carried out on a new thread designed for that purpose...

Fuck that twat Gorski, I'm more worried about you going on a knife rampage now.

Friends of Mr Kato described him yesterday as a typical Akihabara type — a cartoonist of reasonable talent who would “lose himself for hours in cyberspace”. When he went to karaoke, he would select the theme tunes of TV animations; when it came to women he would declare that he was “only interested in two-dimensional girlfriends”.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

oh shit