Tory frontbencher says:-BNP voters' views 'legitimate'

[Mikey77]

From what I saw of that programme (admitedly I didn't watch all of it), there was no mention of the lack of council housing being a problem, due to it being sold off and no more being built. No mention of immigration being used to keep wages down, in fact no exploration of any of the wider issues. Just a presentation of the problem being immigration.

The point is whether or not council housing has been sold off the supply is limited and those people on the waiting list who were born in the UK have a gripe with immigrants getting above them on the list by the priority system. I suppose they are all racists though so who cares?? As long as Peter Hain has a nice country home.

 

[Ned Pointsman]

The state chooses not to, the people choose not to, because it would be in our better interests to have immigration controls. The same way as we actually have import control controls. There is no free market at the moment. There is NO freedom of movement of goods. We have tariffs, they are there for a reason.

It isn't just Trevor Phillips though is it? There is a whole bunch of people who would jump on the band wagon and say all this racism is down to capitalism and that the only way we can rememdy it is through communism...blah blah blah. And these people don't fucking shut up. They'll spend their entire lives trying to convince the immigrants, that we're all a bunch of racist cunts, causing divisions, when there are none. Fuck that .

I was going to dissect how you've managed to contradict yourself in the space of two paragraphs, instead I'll just leave it there, a monument to, if I'm being kind (and I am) your rather cloudy thought process.

What I will say is this - your rhetoric regarding racism is increasingly a straw man, the great thing about england now is that there are apparently no racists, anywhere, there is only the 'pc brigade' to whom anyone who might suggest that discrimination is not particularly desirable belongs. But see, some people actually are racist, they hide behind the free market, using it as a justification for views they'd hold anyway, these are the same people who reflexively shout down anyone who have the audacity to claim that blacking up on facebook is not a particularly good idea as being 'politically correct'.

You have lost then. You can't have Open Borders and a welfare state. So it goes back to immigration controls, yet you are the one who originally said that having immigration controls, with a free movement of goods, doesn't make any logical sense and discriminates. It doesn't. I can live in any country I wish and I'm not sitting here feeling discriminated against. You're talking class A1 bollocks.

I haven't 'lost' anything because AGAIN (why does everything have to be explained to you twice ?) I've not endorsed any position, merely explained to you how the free market works. You seem to have constructed this bizarre little doublethink narrative in your head and are just going along with it regardless of what's actually being said.

I'd like to say you're talking bollocks, but you're not talking anything, you're like an autistic stanley unwin.

 

[YoursTruly]

I was going to dissect how you've managed to contradict yourself in the space of two paragraphs, instead I'll just leave it there, a monument to, if I'm being kind (and I am) your rather cloudy thought process.

What I will say is this - your rhetoric regarding racism is increasingly a straw man, the great thing about england now is that there are apparently no racists, anywhere, there is only the 'pc brigade' to whom anyone who might suggest that discrimination is not particularly desirable belongs. But see, some people actually are racist, they hide behind the free market, using it as a justification for views they'd hold anyway, these are the same people who reflexively shout down anyone who have the audacity to claim that blacking up on facebook is not a particularly good idea as being 'politically correct'.

I haven't 'lost' anything because AGAIN (why does everything have to be explained to you twice ?) I've not endorsed any position, merely explained to you how the free market works. You seem to have constructed this bizarre little doublethink narrative in your head and are just going along with it regardless of what's actually being said.

I'd like to say you're talking bollocks, but you're not talking anything, you're like an autistic stanley unwin.

There is no such thing as a free market. It doesn't exist. (Sadly)

 

[ViolentPanda]

There is no such thing as a free market. It doesn't exist. (Sadly)

There's no such thing because it can't exist (thankfully) under Capitalism without harming the Capitalists by having adverse effects outside of the market.

 

[YoursTruly]

There's no such thing because it can't exist (thankfully) under Capitalism without harming the Capitalists by having adverse effects outside of the market.

Exactly!

 

[Blagsta]

The point is whether or not council housing has been sold off the supply is limited and those people on the waiting list who were born in the UK have a gripe with immigrants getting above them on the list by the priority system. I suppose they are all racists though so who cares?? As long as Peter Hain has a nice country home.

Did anyone accuse anyone of being racist? How's about you engage with what people write, not what you imagine?

Btw, how is the selling off of council houses not relevant? It wasn't an act of God that sold them off, it was a political decision, same as not building anymore is a political decision.

 

[e19896]

THE ENEMY IS MIDDLE CLASS-ANDY ANDERSON AND MARK ANDERSON
(OPENLY CLASSIST PUBLICATIONS)

Nuff Said..

 

[audiotech]

sorry, but he's right. it's a major problem, in the inner cities and elsewhere. east London, the northwest and yorkshire have had it particularly bad; go ask them

No shortage of spud pickers here in Yorkshire. We need more gravy stirrers though.

Not sure what it's like in your part of the world Jezza? Home Counties isn't it?

 

[Streathamite]

Not sure what it's like in your part of the world Jezza? Home Counties isn't it?

for the umpteenth time on this board....streatham

 

[audiotech]

Oh.

 

[Mikey77]

Btw, how is the selling off of council houses not relevant? It wasn't an act of God that sold them off, it was a political decision, same as not building anymore is a political decision.

Because we can't expropriate the houses that were sold off (it's history), and yet politicians pay no attention to the shortage of council housing as part of any policy on immigration - or the lack of one as the case may be. Even if Maggie hadn't given people the right to buy there would probably still have been a shortage given current levels of immigration. The gripe with the system is still the same and an issue in itself whatever has gone before.

 

[Blagsta]

Because we can't expropriate the houses that were sold off (it's history), and yet politicians pay no attention to the shortage of council housing as part of any policy on immigration - or the lack of one as the case may be. Even if Maggie hadn't given people the right to buy there would probably still have been a shortage given current levels of immigration. The gripe with the system is still the same and an issue in itself whatever has gone before.

If their was a decent level of services, would it be as much of a problem?

 

[Mikey77]

When people identify social housing as an issue for them then I suppose that is the issue for them. I think the only way that gripe can be addressed is to have enough council housing to go around which will never be the case, or for the system to be changed back to one of time on the list instead of priority. Other issues might also be important, but would seem to be incidental.

 

[Blagsta]

When people identify social housing as an issue for them then I suppose that is the issue for them. I think the only way that gripe can be addressed is to have enough council housing to go around which will never be the case, or for the system to be changed back to one of time on the list instead of priority. Other issues might also be important, but would seem to be incidental.

Why will there never be enough council housing? All it requires is the political will.

Making housing based on time on list rather than priority means that people in high need might be left in hostels, or on the streets where they will probably get worse or die.

 

[Mikey77]

Why will there never be enough council housing? All it requires is the political will.

Well, of course it is possible but it will never happen.

Making housing based on time on list rather than priority means that people in high need might be left in hostels, or on the streets where they will probably get worse or die.

Or even temporary accommodation, but since the above was always true it's apparent why people who are left waiting years to be rehoused or have their family members housed have a gripe with immigration as it relates to housing. They can't win, even by trying to wait their turn - which never comes. Perhaps the above political will should have been an issue while levels of immigration rose in recent years. Nonetheless, the gripe with the system is still legitimate.

 

[Blagsta]

You're missing the basic point that it's not immigration per se that's the problem. The problem is much wider than that. Immigration is a smokescreen, used to divide people against each other who actually have a lot of interests in common.

 

[Mikey77]

You're missing the basic point that it's not immigration per se that's the problem. The problem is much wider than that. Immigration is a smokescreen, used to divide people against each other who actually have a lot of interests in common.

I'm not missing the point at all. I acknowledge that the government could, in theory, build enough social housing for everyone - but again, that will never happen. The issue is that the BNP resonate with white working class voters by pointing out that high levels of immigration are seen by government as a good thing depite the social housing shortage, and that if immigration levels were not so high there would be less demand for social housing. Unfortunately, given the limited stock of social housing these points are not untrue and that's why people listen to them. Even if you could bring the lack of house building into the argument, the immigration issue would still be there.

 

[muckypup]

Are you mad? You're mad aren't you. You have a problem with your brain don't you?

that did have me laughing however, i dont think its blagsta who's the mad one here

Sorry mate. No offence like, but I don't have much time for mad people. I value my online time. I'm not a fucking therapist you know.

No offense, but for someone who values their time online you do post nonsense. Also, its fairly clear you're not a therapist but i do think you'd benefit from seeing one

 

[muckypup]

I'm not missing the point at all. I acknowledge that the government could, in theory, build enough social housing for everyone - but again, that will never happen. The issue is that the BNP resonate with white working class voters by pointing out that high levels of immigration are seen by government as a good thing depite the social housing shortage, and that if immigration levels were not so high there would be less demand for social housing. Unfortunately, given the limited stock of social housing these points are not untrue and that's why people listen to them. Even if you could bring the lack of house building into the argument, the immigration issue would still be there.

To be quite frank the working classes could do more to campaign and raise some noise about the housing issue. Its not just that social housing isn't being built, its also the draconian planning policy which forbids people from buying cheap land and building something simple on it. Land can be had for as little as a few thousand for an acre, and one acre can be divided into 10 plots.

If you want a just and equitable housing policy then you need to do a hell of a lot more then sit and moan about the immigrants. Get out on the streets and make some noise for sensible government policy. Even if we had nil immigration we would still have a chronic social housing problem.

at days end you get the government you deserve.

 

[Mikey77]

I agree with all of that, particularly the point about there being a lack of social housing anyway - immigration or not. Unfortunately, it seems the only success they had was to make noise and vote BNP. I would think their opinions were not much different when they voted Labour, but people seem to listen more intently when people become extreme in some way (or at least they get more publicity). I doubt Hodge would give a hoot about council houses if she hadn't lost some of her votes.

 

[becky p]

That will be that day. However you cut it and whatever the backgound issues, it is still poor white people bearing the brunt of the disadvantages of the mass immigration of the last few years and employers and the state getting all the advantages.
Leaving the poor white people with no mainstream political party representing them.
Add to that the now blatant attack on sick and disabled people by both labour and tory, and we are living in interesting times. Especially when you add in the 1.2 million 16-25 year olds Not in Education, Employement, or Training, (NEETs) to the explosive brew.

When it comes to immigration, there seem to be some seriously misguided people on urban75. chymaera, you must know that the people most likely to suffer the disadvantages of migration are not white. Look at Unemployment rates of young afro carribean men,at pakistanis and bangladeshis.

 

[becky p]

To be quite frank the working classes could do more to campaign and raise some noise about the housing issue. Its not just that social housing isn't being built, its also the draconian planning policy which forbids people from buying cheap land and building something simple on it. Land can be had for as little as a few thousand for an acre, and one acre can be divided into 10 plots.

If you want a just and equitable housing policy then you need to do a hell of a lot more then sit and moan about the immigrants. Get out on the streets and make some noise for sensible government policy. Even if we had nil immigration we would still have a chronic social housing problem.

at days end you get the government you deserve.

What an inspiring idea. Yes, Lets do away with all planning controls and build over all the countryside and agricultural land.
Great solution mucky pup.

 

[chymaera]

When it comes to immigration, there seem to be some seriously misguided people on urban75. chymaera, you must know that the people most likely to suffer the disadvantages of migration are not white. Look at Unemployment rates of young afro carribean men,at pakistanis and bangladeshis.

Where I live there are no young afro carribean men, pakistanis and bangladeshis. There are however a fair number of indigenous locals who have been told to:- "fuck off we are only employimg foreigners".
(This relates to seasonal crop picking.)

 

[audiotech]

Only a few months ago there were real concerns that the harvest was going to be left in the field.

Apparently, the problem had been exacerbated by the fact that Poles and other eastern Europeans were now less interested in coming to Britain.

"Their standard of living at home has increased more rapidly than anyone could have projected, so they are now staying at home," according to The National Farmers' Union chief horticultural adviser.

"Other countries, such as the Netherlands, have now opened their borders to them to work."

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=833192007

Ain't the season for crop picking over now anyway?

 

[chymaera]

Only a few months ago there were real concerns that the harvest was going to be left in the field.

Basically because the goverment has binned the SAWs system.
(Student Agricultural Workers system worked well had been in place since Adam was a lad)

 

[audiotech]

Basically because the goverment has binned the SAWs system.

Have they?

Not according to this site:

The Seasonal Agricutural Workers Scheme (SAWS) allows for the admission of seasonal workers from countries outside of the European Union using a work card system.
http://www.concordiafarms.org/students/noneu.aspx

How does this relate to anything you've said so far?

 

[chymaera]

Have they?

Not according to this site:
How does this relate to anything you've said so far?

That site is out of date. The phasing out then scrapping of SAWs by 2010caused a heated row, which of course the government took no notice of.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmhansrd/cm070423/text/70423w0024.htm
The quota for Seasonal Agricultural Workers Scheme (SAWS) was cut from 25,000 in 2004 to 16,250 in the following three years. The quota for the Sectors Based Scheme (SBS) was cut from 20,000 in 2003-04 to 15,000 in 2004-05 and to 3,500 in the following years with the termination of the SBS quota for the hospitality sector altogether in July 2005.

The Government have subsequently announced that the SAWS will be phased out in 2010 and, in the meantime, both the SAWS and the SBS will move to being restricted to Bulgarian and Romanian nationals

 

[becky p]

Where I live there are no young afro carribean men, pakistanis and bangladeshis. There are however a fair number of indigenous locals who have been told to:- "fuck off we are only employimg foreigners".
(This relates to seasonal crop picking.)

Perhaps you could have made that clearer then.
In major cities,it is very different.
Black and Asian people are the people most likely to lose out to new migrants.