Tories 4 points in front :(

[goneforlunch]

That's fair. But most people in Wales would vote to stay in the EU if there was a free and fairly debated referendum on that issue. I'm not sure what the situation is in England because of the right-wing press there.

How do you know that most people in Wales would vote to stay in?

We have never had a free and fair debate about our membership, and this is not a simple
right -v- left wing issue; factions on both sides are both for and against.

 

[fractionMan]

On 39%, with Labour on 35% and Libdems on 20%

http://conservativehome.blogs.com/torydiary/2006/01/icm_poll_gives_.html#comment-12882792

As piltch says, it makes no difference.

 

[swells]

As piltch says, it makes no difference.

Next time I get paid for a days holiday, I'll remind my self there is no difference and the Tories would have introduced it too.

 

[TAE]

Tories on 39%, with Labour on 35%

I'm not going to vote for either of them.

 

[pilchardman]

Next time I get paid for a days holiday, I'll remind my self there is no difference and the Tories would have introduced it too.

What legislation was this?

 

[TeeJay]

... if you are looking for a common culture between Cornwall and Tyneside you won't find it...

Leaving aside the issue of patriotism...

...if you compare these two to somewhere in France you would easily be able to pick which two had a greater shared culture and which one was the odd one out - you would be able to point to hundreds, maybe thousands, of things.

 

[TeeJay]

landed on wrong post sorry

That means you have to go back five places and miss a turn.

 

[TeeJay]

The environment, health and safety, planning, and trade*, farming and fishing. It doesn't sound that much, but all these things have far reaching effects on our lives and they impact on other policy areas.

Most other areas of government are heavily circumscribed including foreign policy, tax, defence, the police and criminal justice. Above all, when Heath signed the Treaty of Rome we lost legal supremacy (in policy areas where our governments have signed over control to the EU.) Many bills that go through Westminster are part EU legislation and part our own, and it would be difficult to separate the two.

You haven't answered the question - you have just made a list of almost every single policy area.

Can you give some specific examples?

The UK has signed up to the EU. Of course this means that it is required to do certain things, as a member. If it wanted to it could leave.

You might argue that British people haven't consented because there hasn't been a referendum, but if you use this logic then 99.9% of laws are not val9id because they have never been put to a referendum. I can't really think of any referendum I have ever votyed on, with the sole exception of being asked if I wanted a London Mayor and Assembly. Ironically although I voted "yes" I no longer live in London - whereas there are probably lots of people living there now who never got to vote at the time.

 

[pilchardman]

Leaving aside the issue of patriotism...

...if you compare these two to somewhere in France you would easily be able to pick which two had a greater shared culture and which one was the odd one out - you would be able to point to hundreds, maybe thousands, of things.

If you picked Cornwall and Brittany, you would have a shared language, music, history and fish-obsession.

 

[redsquirrel]

Leaving aside the issue of patriotism...

...if you compare these two to somewhere in France you would easily be able to pick which two had a greater shared culture and which one was the odd one out - you would be able to point to hundreds, maybe thousands, of things.

And if you compare Britian and France to China "you would easily be able to pick which two had a greater shared culture and which one was the odd one out". So what?

 

[Streathamite]

We need to exit the EU tonight and wales can have total self rule as well.
We can stop paying for the silly euro crap and wales can also pay for it's own budget.

to the best of my knowkledge, there has never been anywhere near majority support for independence in Wales.
And also take it from me; if we left the EU, we would be bankrupt within 6 months. We cannot survive outside this trading bloc.

 

[goneforlunch]

You haven't answered the question - you have just made a list of almost every single policy area.

Exactly. That's how far EU legislation reaches - almost every single policy area.

But briefly to answer the question "What is it the parties here would like to do, but can't because of EU regulations?" ...

The Conservatives apparently would like to take back control of business regulation. They can't because in order to do so would mean getting the agreement of the other member states, and this would mean the EU giving up parts of its sacred "acquis communautaire". This has never happened, not in all the years the Community has existed. This was just a cynical election ploy on the part of Cameron.

I imagine that future politicians might well want to re-nationalise former state energy industries. They would not be able to do so because they were 'liberalised', ie privatised, under EU directives, and reversing this legislation would again mean the EU giving up a part of its acquis communautaire.

http://europa.eu.int/comm/competition/liberalization/legislation/

There are many, many examples of such things across most policy areas.

The UK has signed up to the EU. Of course this means that it is required to do certain things, as a member. If it wanted to it could leave.

So I would say that the UK being required to do certain things is understating the case. But it is true that if it wanted to, as things stand, it could leave. However in reality this is unlikely because all the major parties are committed to our membership.

You might argue that British people haven't consented because there hasn't been a referendum, but if you use this logic then 99.9% of laws are not val9id because they have never been put to a referendum. I can't really think of any referendum I have ever votyed on, with the sole exception of being asked if I wanted a London Mayor and Assembly. Ironically although I voted "yes" I no longer live in London - whereas there are probably lots of people living there now who never got to vote at the time.

The difference between laws brought in by the EU and those brought in solely by UK politicians, is that a future government cannot overturn EU law in the way that it can overturn UK laws. (EU laws are "transposed" in a rubber stamping exercise by our politicians and passed off to the public as UK laws.) If we are not happy with the government of the day, we can vote them out. We cannot do that with the EU; it isn't democratic and it has no "opposition".

And also take it from me; if we left the EU, we would be bankrupt within 6 months. We cannot survive outside this trading bloc.

Yes we can, and we can not only survive, we can do better. But can you back your argument up?

 

[MikeMcc]

to the best of my knowkledge, there has never been anywhere near majority support for independence in Wales.
And also take it from me; if we left the EU, we would be bankrupt within 6 months. We cannot survive outside this trading bloc.

Says who? Companies still need to trade with each other, irrespective of what political bloc their countries are in. In fact it will ease the tendering process for larger contracts because we won't have to follow this OJEC silliness.

 

[swells]

What legislation was this?

Holiday pay for all introduced by this Labour govt. Sorry, not sure of the exact name of the act of parliament....anyone?

 

[sleaterkinney]

Says who? Companies still need to trade with each other, irrespective of what political bloc their countries are in. In fact it will ease the tendering process for larger contracts because we won't have to follow this OJEC silliness.

Actually you'll find that if we need to trade with the EU then they insist on implementing their standards anyway, I heard once that Norway has more EU legislation implemented than any country in the EU - it has to to trade. I'd also say six months is a bit on the high side, I'd give it six weeks outside the EU before we'd be bankrupt.

 

[Bigdavalad]

So what's wrong with nationalism? Did you read/listen to his speech? It's rhetoric, all he wants is the media focus to on him.

And what's wrong about feeling patriotic over the defeat of nazism in WWII? NB that you can feel patriotic about your people as well as patriotic about the government. I think Western governments fucked up and produced the two World Wars (and then continued colonialism), but it was our countrymen who died to fix it. It's worth a day to commemorate the struggles of our ancestors.

We have one and have had one since the early 1920s - 11th November.

 

[goneforlunch]

Actually you'll find that if we need to trade with the EU then they insist on implementing their standards anyway, I heard once that Norway has more EU legislation implemented than any country in the EU - it has to to trade. I'd also say six months is a bit on the high side, I'd give it six weeks outside the EU before we'd be bankrupt.

That's not quite true. Since 1992 Norway has adopted only 3,000 legal acts. In the same period Britain has adopted around 24,000 legal acts! And Norway still sells more to the EU despite not being a member than we do, and it doesn't have to put up with all the interference in its affairs that we do. And this is true of all the other EFTA members who all export proportionately more to the other EU states than we do.

And the EU is so good that Norweigans have twice rejected membership! Still think we'd go bankrupt on the outside?

 

[sleaterkinney]

That's not quite true. Since 1992 Norway has adopted only 3,000 legal acts. In the same period Britain has adopted around 24,000 legal acts! And Norway still sells more to the EU despite not being a member than we do, and it doesn't have to put up with all the interference in its affairs that we do. And this is true of all the other EFTA members who all export proportionately more to the other EU states than we do.

And the EU is so good that Norweigans have twice rejected membership! Still think we'd go bankrupt on the outside?

Like I said, it was only something I overheard, do you have any source for those figures btw?. And Norway has still had to adopt those laws without having a say via the EU parliment on how they were formulated, how is this not interference?. Would you like the same for the uk?

The norweigians rejected it by very close margins, only because they have a strong economy based on their own energy sources, the uk doesn't have that...

I still stand by my six weeks, A lot of the multinationals based here would have to pull out if the trading rules changed.

 

[lewislewis]

Six weeks sounds sensible to me.

It's not as if the EU is any more reactionary than Westminster anyway.

Edit- In fact i'd say it's more progressive.

 

[goneforlunch]

Like I said, it was only something I overheard, do you have any source for those figures btw?. And Norway has still had to adopt those laws without having a say via the EU parliment on how they were formulated, how is this not interference?. Would you like the same for the uk?

Yes, Conservative MEP Daniel Hannan, who has actually done the research. Before you rain venom down on my head, I am not in anyway a Tory, but I can just about forgive him for being one when he rejects the EU so utterly in contrast to the bulk of his party. And I am afraid you are quite wrong in thinking the UK has anymore say in formulating those laws than Norway does. And complying with 3,000 laws is a hell of a lot different to 24,000! They don't have "interference" to anything like the same degree that we do. Unelected bureacrats issue such things anyway, with little recourse to national politicians.

The norweigians rejected it by very close margins, only because they have a strong economy based on their own energy sources, the uk doesn't have that ...

Yes, their referendums were close. I expect they were subjected to the same crap propaganda that we are, but reject membership they did, and they are doing very nicely. The EU doesn't have its own energy sources (apart from what we still have left) either, so what difference does that make? We are capable of negotiating our own energy contracts.

I still stand by my six weeks, A lot of the multinationals based here would have to pull out if the trading rules changed.

Even if this were to be correct, I certainly don't want my country run for the dubious benefit of multi-nationals. Do you have any basis for saying that they would pull out if we left? I know there was a lot of talk about Nissan pulling out if we didn't join the euro, but this was probably a political, rather than economic, issue - the French own a large stake in Nissan.

Multi-nationationals are more likely to pull out because of hard economic facts; the cost of doing business within the EU is so high, and they will leave as soon as it suits them.

But what do you see as the benefits of being in the EU?

 

[MikeMcc]

Actually you'll find that if we need to trade with the EU then they insist on implementing their standards anyway, I heard once that Norway has more EU legislation implemented than any country in the EU - it has to to trade. I'd also say six months is a bit on the high side, I'd give it six weeks outside the EU before we'd be bankrupt.

But we do that anyway. I've worked in engineering for years now, the last five and half for companies carrying out large engineering contracts (paper industry, pharma and now materials research). While I've worked for those companies we've always had to deal with the legislation for CE marking, but also for UL registration in the States. It may be onerous, but it is does effect everyone no matter where they are. I'm not suggesting that we would work outside EFTA, just outside of the the EU. Don't forget that trade works both ways and that the EU would lose alot if it came to a trade war. It would also allow us to trade on better terms with the Commonwealth countries, this would allow us to gain ggods and services that we might lose by splitting from the EU.

One of the biggest problems that I observe at the moment is that for large contracts there are prolonged delays to allow for the OJEC tendering procedure. The OJEC request has to be posted for weeks, before it can be processed and there is a raft of paperwork that has to be generated and retained. This has to be followed even when you KNOW that there are only a handful of suppliers that can do the work or meet the requirements.

 

[MikeMcc]

Like I said, it was only something I overheard, do you have any source for those figures btw?. And Norway has still had to adopt those laws without having a say via the EU parliment on how they were formulated, how is this not interference?. Would you like the same for the uk?

The norweigians rejected it by very close margins, only because they have a strong economy based on their own energy sources, the uk doesn't have that...

I still stand by my six weeks, A lot of the multinationals based here would have to pull out if the trading rules changed.

They haven't accepted 'laws' (as far as I know), their companies have had to meet the regulations required to trade in the EU, but that also happens in other regions of the world. Having to comply with UL, FDA and other bodies regulations doesn't stop companies trading with the States. One of the biggest pains in the rear end recently was a regulation called FDA 21 CFR 11, it calls for record keeping for who did what, where and when in the food and pharma industries. This resulted in a whole host of expensive software changes, but as far as I know no company has gone bust because of it. Machine regulations have changed completely even in the space of 5 years with the introduction of regulations like IEC 61508, but it doesnt lead to companies going out of business.

 

[TeeJay]

Holiday pay for all introduced by this Labour govt. Sorry, not sure of the exact name of the act of parliament....anyone?

Was it the Employment Relations Act 1999?

I know this one extended paid leave to part time workers (on a pro rata basis), plus a load of other things.

 

[TeeJay]

And if you compare Britian and France to China "you would easily be able to pick which two had a greater shared culture and which one was the odd one out". So what?

I was responding to this comment: "...if you are looking for a common culture between Cornwall and Tyneside you won't find it..."

I am saying that you *would* find a lot of shared culture between Cornwall and Tyneside. Nothing more, just responding to a specific post.

 

[sleaterkinney]

They haven't accepted 'laws' (as far as I know), their companies have had to meet the regulations required to trade in the EU,

Yes, they have, see goneforlunch's post.

 

[sleaterkinney]

But we do that anyway. I've worked in engineering for years now, the last five and half for companies carrying out large engineering contracts (paper industry, pharma and now materials research). While I've worked for those companies we've always had to deal with the legislation for CE marking, but also for UL registration in the States. It may be onerous, but it is does effect everyone no matter where they are. I'm not suggesting that we would work outside EFTA, just outside of the the EU. Don't forget that trade works both ways and that the EU would lose alot if it came to a trade war. It would also allow us to trade on better terms with the Commonwealth countries, this would allow us to gain ggods and services that we might lose by splitting from the EU.

You think the trade with Commonwealth countries matches up with the EU?. And if we step outside then we will lose any voice we may have had in formulating those regulations, Don't forget that this isn't just france and germany making their own laws and the uk having to sign up, with the eastern countries joining the future of the EU is there to be moulded but you can do nothing on the outside..

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Norway manage.

 

[MikeMcc]

You think the trade with Commonwealth countries matches up with the EU?. And if we step outside then we will lose any voice we may have had in formulating those regulations, Don't forget that this isn't just france and germany making their own laws and the uk having to sign up, with the eastern countries joining the future of the EU is there to be moulded but you can do nothing on the outside..

Why do we need to have a voice in creating the regulations? Again I refer back to UL, we don't have an input to them, but it doesn't stop us complying with them though.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Norway manage.

Yes, but only because they've got the natural resources.

 

[goneforlunch]

Sleaterkinney, You didn’t answer my questions.

1. Do you have any basis for saying that they [the multinationals] would pull out if we left? I know there was a lot of talk about Nissan pulling out if we didn't join the euro, but this was probably a political, rather than economic, issue - the French own a large stake in Nissan.

2. But what do you see as the benefits of being in the EU?

Norway doesn’t have to enact EU laws, and they enact very few. Norway complies with some regulations to gain access to the single market like many other countries. We have very, very little input into the formation of these regulations.

The difference is that they don’t have to and we do. There are lots of countries without natural resources and it does not stop them from being successful. A country's resources don't have to be 'natural' to be extremely valuable to its economy.