Top Tips For Writing

[phildwyer]

I actually did though phil. I showed it (the second/third(sort of) draft) to a professional editor and didn't like a lot of his criticisms, and I've taken on board some of his suggestions, but I think I rushed into some a little bit too readily as well ...

Sorry, our posts crossed. Obviously everyone works differently, but personally I find the advice of others too difficult to assimilate, and usually end up ignoring it anyway. Unless it is an editor or publisher saying "if you do this we'll publish it," in which case I just make the changes they request. Or say that I'll make them, and then conveniently forget to do so on the proof corrections when it's too late to change anything. No integrity, but life's too short.

I think you should send it to agents first, because ultimately they're the ones who'll decide whether or not it gets published. The trouble is they won't usually bother saying why they're turning you down. Editors will though, so maybe you could send chapters to short-story journals and see what they reckon. Personally I don't bother sending stuff directly to publishers, as they tend not to take "un-agented" work.

 

[phildwyer]

I totally agree. I haven't looked into it that closely but I'd bet that these gloriously tortured alkie writers only descended into their glorious torture when they had the money to do so from patrons or successful publications.

It's a bit like fitba. There might be the occasional Maradona out there who can continue chundering on with a massive coke habit but for every one of those they'll be many more Gazzas.

Actually I think there were some very good writers who wrote brilliantly when pissed, but they pretty much came from a single generation--Hemingway, Faulkner, Fitzgerald etc. People like Poe and Thomas wrote well despite their drinking not because of it, and were over-rated anyway. And the real geniuses--Shakespeare, Milton, Goethe etc--weren't big drinkers at all.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I'm not quite that strict, but I definitely write better if I'm feeling physically fit. About 2-3 hours writing in the morning and 1-2 hours swimming in the afternoon is the perfect life for me. I've no idea how alkie writers like Dylan Thomas and them manage it. I don't suppose they do for long actually, I think the drunken writer thing is a bit of a myth.

I wrote about 120 pages of a novel once, only working on it when sleep deprived, mildly drunk or very stoned. My god it was terrible. To this day I have no idea what I thought it was supposed to be about.

 

[frogwoman]

I've just written this - basically a continuation of what anna was saying - but about her own boyfriend: a bit more pleased with it this time, cos it gives the impression of being a bit of a "bunny boiler"

“’Ow’s it goin’,” Gary says, when she’s out of the room.
“Oh, you know,” I say. “Same old, really. I’m thinking of breaking up with Luke.”
“’Ow comes?”
“Well,” I say. “I just don’t think it’s really working out between us. And you know – the job I’ve applied to means I’d hardly ever see him.” It’s because – well. I’m less than happy about the company he’s keeping these days. It wouldn’t upset me so much if it wasn’t for the fact that he’s out so much of the time. He takes too long to answer his calls, and when I ask him whether he wants to do anything, or come round, he always says something like, “Sorry darling, I’ve got a headache”. Obviously not enough of a headache not to go out with his friends, rather than me. And I don’t enjoy their company. Half of them are P*kis. And – OK. People can have whatever friends they like, I don’t really care, but it shouldn’t be at the expense of their other relationships, especially when you’ve only just met them and you’ve been with your girlfriend for three years.

He drinks too much, too. I’ve tried telling him to stop, but it doesn’t work. It’s so unpleasant to be out in public with someone who can’t stop himself from behaving like a pig. He’s put on too much weight, which I’m really not happy about. If you care about someone, you should make an effort to maintain your appearance.

I want to be single. It’s only really guilt that stops me from ending it with him. He’s not the kind of guy who takes things very well; he’s too emotional. We’ve had far too many arguments recently, and I really can’t cope with someone who feels the need to raise his voice at me every time I try to tell him that we need to talk about things.

 

[Diamond]

Hemingway is interesting. The discipline of his writing would seem to run against the loquaciousness of the idea of a dissolute writer.

 

[frogwoman]

i like hemingway

 

[Bakunin]

i like hemingway

Not a bad writer, but a pretty unpleasant human being IIRC.

Never be afraid to send inquiries to publishers and editors on spec, either. I wrote a long article about crime for one editor who chose not to publish (their prerogative, don't even consider trying writing as a profession if you can't stomach rejection) but I sent an enquiry on spec to another magazine that deals with the same subject (crime) and within the hour they asked me to send them the complete piece. If the editor likes it (the editor will be looking at it as soon as they've got time), and once I've made whatever changes they might want, then it might well be another entry in my portfolio.

Another tip is to enter competitions regularly. There are plenty out there for you and a lot have generous cash prizes, although, while I like the money, I'm more interested in the exposure. You'd be surprised, maybe, to know that the bigger short story competitions can have a three or four figure prize for winning and the resultant exposure can only be a good thing.

 

[Diamond]

Very briefly frogwoman, this is how I would edit the stuff you just offered:

[“’How’s it goin’,” Gary says, when she’s out of the room.
“Oh, you know,” I say. “Same old. [break for action here – pacing] I’m thinking of breaking up with Luke.”
“How come?”
“Well,” I say. “I just don’t think it’s working out between us. And you know – the job I’ve applied to means I’d hardly ever see him.” [break for action – still internal monologue, or dialogue?] It’s because – well. I’m less than happy about the company he’s keeping these days.
It wouldn’t upset me so much if it wasn’t for the fact that he’s out so much of the time. [break] He takes too long to answer his calls. And when I ask him whether he wants to do anything, or come round, he always says something like, “Sorry darling, I’ve got a headache”.
Obviously not enough of a headache not to go out with his friends, rather than me.
And I don’t enjoy their company. Half of them are P*kis. [break] And – OK. People can have whatever friends they like, I don’t really care. But it shouldn’t be at the expense of their other relationships. Especially when you’ve only just met them and you’ve been with your girlfriend for three years.

He drinks too much, too. I’ve tried telling him to stop, but it doesn’t work. [break] It’s so unpleasant to be out in public with someone who can’t stop himself from behaving like a pig.
He’s put on too much weight, which I’m really not happy about. If you care about someone, you should make an effort to maintain your appearance.

I want to be single. It’s only the guilt that stops me from ending it. He’s not the kind of guy who takes things well. He’s too emotional. [break] We’ve had too many arguments recently. I can’t cope with someone who feels the need to raise his voice at me. Every time I try to tell him that we need to talk about things……….

In the breaks, you might only need very short snatches of description to pace it. Basically mundane things. Taking a sip from a drink, checking the phone, looking away and then returning to the principal's gaze; cliched stuff like that.

 

[Bakunin]

There is also something very disturbing about people who buy vast numbers of books which basically only consist of graphic, in depth descriptions of paedophilia and similar horrors as well ...

That may depend on their motives, to be fair.

I tend to specialise in crime for articles and write short stories in the horror and dark fiction genres, so I've got some books (well, quite a few) the content of which would turn a lot of people pale. I find that writing the crime articles tends to stimulate my ideas for writing horror, so that's why I've got some seriously nasty stuff in my collection.

 

[frogwoman]

its just an internal monologue after the quote marks tho. same sort of stuff apply, or not? x

 

[frogwoman]

That may depend on their motives, to be fair.

I tend to specialise in crime for articles and write short stories in the horror and dark fiction genres, so I've got some books (well, quite a few) the content of which would turn a lot of people pale. I find that writing the crime articles tends to stimulate my ideas for writing horror, so that's why I've got some seriously nasty stuff in my collection.

fair enough, so do i, i've written/researched some really fucking nasty shit for the stuff i write. i mean the sort of "oh daddy no" type stuff you get on the shelves tho

 

[Bakunin]

That may depend on their motives, to be fair.

I tend to specialise in crime for articles and write short stories in the horror and dark fiction genres, so I've got some books (well, quite a few) the content of which would turn a lot of people pale. I find that writing the crime articles tends to stimulate my ideas for writing horror, so that's why I've got some seriously nasty stuff in my collection.

A biography of this individual, which goes into considerable detail about how he went about his business, would not be to your taste, Frogwoman, methinks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Kuklinski

 

[frogwoman]

A biography of this individual, which goes into considerable detail about how he went about his business, would not be to your taste, Frogwoman, methinks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Kuklinski

ah i think you';ve got what i was saying wrong - i research that sort of stuff too, i didn't make myself clear enough.

i meant stuff like "a child called it" etc and quite a few of the memoirs you can get about peopels "painful lives" which just consist of that type of stuff and just seem to be for tittilation really, and a lot aren't even true, although i don't mean to make generalisations about them, and obviously it does help people to write some of that stuff down, but there's something about making an industry of it that seems a bit off to me

 

[Bakunin]

fair enough, so do i, i've written/researched some really fucking nasty shit for the stuff i write. i mean the sort of "oh daddy no" type stuff you get on the shelves tho

Yes, I know the kind of stuff you mean. Personally, I won't write about sex crime except in passing, especially not crime against kids. I can stomach most stuff, but paedophilia and rape stuff I don't use for inspiration or write about.

 

[Diamond]

its just an internal monologue after the quote marks tho. same sort of stuff apply, or not? x

Yes, most of it is stylistics.

Internal monologue, aka exposition, is difficult to carry in any scenario but that seems fine to me in terms of being relevant to both plot and characterisation.

The thing is you have to be careful with the balance. Is this the umpteenth reaction to the same situation or has something new provoked this?

That would seem to me to be the golden rule re: internal monologue. Is it interesting/believable/which new places does it take the character into?

 

[frogwoman]

yeah No, it isn't the same reaction, because this is the first time the character appears (i'm doing it from multiple points of view)

do youthink that passage gets across what an utter bitch she is tho?

 

[Diamond]

It's difficult to say without seeing the context. I'd be happy to read more if you want me to take a look.

The main thing to watch out with with multiple p.o.v's is to establish a pattern early on for the reader.

You want to switch in discrete units: that is to say to not have two character's p.o.v within the same scene/chapter, no matter how tempting that might be.

Of course rules are there to be broken but you have to have good reasons for it, otherwise, in this case, the reader will find it difficult to identify the principal and have their interested dissipated.

 

[Bakunin]

Would it be a good idea for this thread to be made a sticky, does anyone think?

 

[frogwoman]

It's difficult to say without seeing the context. I'd be happy to read more if you want me to take a look.

The main thing to watch out with with multiple p.o.v's is to establish a pattern early on for the reader.

You want to switch in discrete units: that is to say to not have two character's p.o.v within the same scene/chapter, no matter how tempting that might be.

Of course rules are there to be broken but you have to have good reasons for it, otherwise, in this case, the reader will find it difficult to identify the principal and have their interested dissipated.

Cool, yeah. I'm re-writing it at the moment (because the changes I made made it crap tbh) and would be happy for someone to take a look at the first 25 pages

xxx

 

[Diamond]

Cool, yeah. I'm re-writing it at the moment (because the changes I made made it crap tbh) and would be happy for someone to take a look at the first 25 pages

xxx

Well pm me with stuff when you feel comfortable with peeps reading it.

 

[frogwoman]

ok x

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

I agree with phil about drinking. It completely destroys my creativity.

I tend to write most when living somewhere a bit inspiring.

In dalian i wrote the two books which I sent to froggie, and there was just something inspiring about waking up most days to crystal clear, blue sky days, and having a view of a 800m mountain directly out of my window.

 

[frogwoman]

If anyone wants to look at the first (revised) first 50 pages then let me know although sadly can't offer anything more than that!

suggestions etc welcome x

 

[phildwyer]

I agree with phil about drinking. It completely destroys my creativity.

I tend to write most when living somewhere a bit inspiring.

In dalian i wrote the two books which I sent to froggie, and there was just something inspiring about waking up most days to crystal clear, blue sky days, and having a view of a 800m mountain directly out of my window.

Yes, I wrote a lot when I was in India, because there's no nightlife so I was in bed sober by 8pm every night. And also being in unfamiliar surroundings helps, I think.

Good stuff btw Froggie...

 

[DotCommunist]

One issue that long plagued me was 'ooh am I ripping off xxx'

You can't escape your influences, so don't try.