Top Screw joins Socialist Party

[dennisr]

I'd say somewhere before you start supporting capital's armed enforcers in their demands to be paid more for kicking the crap out of us, but clearly we disagree on that.

Can you show me - anywhere - the SP supporting reactionary demands? - as opposed to supporting a left movement within the POA

I do, yes. In what way would me supporting my managers demand for a better pay packet be any different to the POA dispute from the point of view of a prisoner put away for his actions on a picket line?

Can you show me - anywhere - the SP supporting managers over workers in achieving their aims or the POA over a prisoner put away for his actions on a picket line?

At least I use qoutes rather than try and imply something which does not in practice exist...

There were progressive elements in that dispute that I did support, yes, but that's different to a prison officers strike where the wider social role of the strikers is straightforwardly reactionary.

how is it different? you have already said that you would not say that every single action by the POA is reactionary? Why the change of position? (given that you a fella with principles....). The answer goes back to the simple (and real...) principles I raised - the tactical and strategic questions - how does one weaken the state (ie the forces that make up that 'state'). How does noe weaken the reactionary role played by those state forces?? By standing aside???

 

[In Bloom]

Can you show me - anywhere - the SP supporting reactionary demands? - as opposed to supporting a left movement within the POA

I was being a little bit toungue in cheek there, but when you get down to it, that's what supporting a prison officers' strike means in practice, higher pay for the people who's job it is to kick us while we're down. I'm not saying I'm opposed to screws being paid more money, by the way, I couldn't give a fuck whether they were paid in gold bullion or Zimbabwean dollars.

Can you show me - anywhere - the SP supporting managers over workers in achieving their aims or the POA over a prisoner put away for his actions on a picket line?

At least I use qoutes rather than try and imply something which does not in practice exist...

I'm not saying that the SP is doing any of that (well, not directly), what I'm saying is that there are prisoners who we should be supporting, and there's a unresolvable contradiction between supporting those prisoners and supporting screws. From the point of view of a prisoner, supporting screws demanding higher pay is going to be even more mental than me supporting my manager demanding higher pay, no?

how is it different? you have already said that you would not say that every single action by the POA is reactionary? Why the change of position? (given that you a fella with principles....)

It's not a change of position, it's the exact same thing I said before only differently worded:

the wider social role of the strikers is straightforwardly reactionary

Their wider social role, not the strike itself.

 

[dennisr]

Their wider social role, not the strike itself.

Where does one draw the line?

You raised the question of the army before (I guessed you dropped it because I answered that question directly and you ralised you were on a hiding to nothing in trying to differenciate the two different sections of the state's forces??)

Shouldn't we be supporting their deaths? - objectively they are the puppets of imperial interests? - Shouldn't we be standing with those shit-stirring fundies in Luton?

How about armaments workers? scum - murderers

Workers who build cars? - objectively mass-murders??

DWP workers? - State lackeys, administators of poverty and dispair?

Teachers? - Mind-manipulators, Oppressors...

All workers in the advanced capitalist countries?? - Imperialist lackeys....

Why do you draw the line where you do??

I would argue that your desicion - being based on "social role" is a mistaken tack to take when deciding tactical and strategic questions

 

[TopCat]

Any success for the POA sets back any attempts to run prisons properly and not just for the convenience of the POA and it's members.

The POA is not an organisation that should be supported by pro working class militants.

 

[The39thStep]

The absurd conclusion of some of this debate is that prison officers can't be trade unionists never mind socialists.

but when you get down to it, that's what supporting a prison officers' strike means in practice, higher pay for the people who's job it is to kick us while we're down

probably represents the highpoint of lunacy from the 'open the gates' lobby.

Topcat , how would you like to see the prisons run properly?

 

[In Bloom]

The absurd conclusion of some of this debate is that prison officers can't be trade unionists never mind socialists.

Well clearly they can be trade unionists, as some of them are.

probably represents the highpoint of lunacy from the 'open the gates' lobby.

The what lobby? Behave

 

[TopCat]

Topcat , how would you like to see the prisons run properly?

Well I don't think the POA should be able (as they currently are) to actually run prisons for the convenience of their members. The reality of their control is that people are fed their last meal of the day at 4pm and don't get fed again until breakfast.

Further, their control means that violence committed by POA members is rarely properly investigated despite being widespread.

Rehabilitation courses are often not scheduled because the POA members are obstructive.

I could go on and on but the reality is that the POA are in no way a progressive organisation and have on the whole opposed many measures proposed that would make prison life liveable for people who often have severe mental health issues.

 

[trevhagl]

http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/8032

The fuck? Are principles just something other people have as far as the SP are concerned?

i dunno , there are good screws, and there are rabid nazi cunts.

 

[The39thStep]

Well I don't think the POA should be able (as they currently are) to actually run prisons for the convenience of their members. The reality of their control is that people are fed their last meal of the day at 4pm and don't get fed again until breakfast.

Further, their control means that violence committed by POA members is rarely properly investigated despite being widespread.

Rehabilitation courses are often not scheduled because the POA members are obstructive.

I could go on and on but the reality is that the POA are in no way a progressive organisation and have on the whole opposed many measures proposed that would make prison life liveable for people who often have severe mental health issues.

I wasn't aware that the POA led the management board for any prison let alone the entirity of HMP service. Isn't the relationship of the POA to managers the same as any other trade union? Managers will argue that it is cash limits and no doubt blame the POA and the wage bill. Shouldn't the arguement be with the managers who run these institutions?

 

[The39thStep]

Well clearly they can be trade unionists, as some of them are.


The what lobby? Behave

So who would we want to perform the task that any society asks prison officers to do?

 

[DotCommunist]

i dunno , there are good screws, and there are rabid nazi cunts.

and unicorns, and fairies at the bottom of the garden

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Brian Caton has joined the Socialist Party:
http://socialistparty.org.uk/issue/593/8032
While one can imagine a rank and file screw joining a socialist group (just as in the army some don't know what they are getting into), I find find it hard to see how a screw (and someone as prominent as Caton) can be in a socialist organisation, especially as in the interview he says NOTHING about prisoners rights and prisoners right to self-organisation (prisoners are denied the right to form a union/association and speak for themselves) solidarity with prisoner uprisings against mistreatment a la Strangeways and HMP Ashwell earlier in the year, doesn't mention prison reform very much let alone abolition

Discuss.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Screws = cunts

Trots = cunts

They deserve each other.

 

[chainsaw cat]

Brian Caton has joined the Socialist Party:
http://socialistparty.org.uk/issue/593/8032
While one can imagine a rank and file screw joining a socialist group (just as in the army some don't know what they are getting into), I find find it hard to see how a screw (and someone as prominent as Caton) can be in a socialist organisation, especially as in the interview he says NOTHING about prisoners rights and prisoners right to self-organisation (prisoners are denied the right to form a union/association and speak for themselves) solidarity with prisoner uprisings against mistreatment a la Strangeways and HMP Ashwell earlier in the year, doesn't mention prison reform very much let alone abolition

Discuss.

at the bold bit.

Grrr!

 

[Spion]

thread merge needed http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=302940&page=2

 

[Spion]

Screws = cunts

Trots = cunts

They deserve each other.

Stupid wanker

 

[Udo Erasmus]

In some ways Caton is one of the most militant trade union leaders in Britain today, and the POA broke strike laws, so obviously socialists should take note and be open to dialogue, but I find it problematic that the SP have accepted someone as prominent as Caton joining who is a spokesperson for prison officers while dodging certain issues such as when prisoners who are denied a voice justifiably stage an uprising such as at HMP Ashwell earlier this year did the POA support them? It is noticeable that nowhere in the interview do prisoners have a voice etc.

This is just a gut feeling, i'm open to argument.

 

[DotCommunist]

I'm increasingly worried about the ethical flexibility of the SP. They do good work, but still...

 

[Spion]

My first thought was not so much that he's a screw but a union bureaucrat, which raises the question: if union leaders are joining a nominally Marxist party does that tell us the class struggle is being keenly fought, or does it tell us something worrying about the SP's politics that a union bureaucrat can join them

 

[Spion]

I'm increasingly worried about the ethical flexibility of the SP. They do good work, but still...

That's been their problem historically.

 

[trevhagl]

and unicorns, and fairies at the bottom of the garden

i base the knowledge on geezer books of course.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I'm increasingly worried about the ethical flexibility of the SP. They do good work, but still...

I'm not worried at all. If they're willing to associate with the screws' union then they've filed themselves under 'opportunistic cunts' and there they shall remain for ever more.

 

[AKA pseudonym]

feckin screws... as much as the SP will trot out 'the workers in uniform' line... they are still scumbags..

Does anyone seriously believe that this token screw joining the SP is gonna change things..

To me it just cheapens any positive thoughts I may have ever held for the SP..

 

[DotCommunist]

I'm not worried at all. If they're willing to associate with the screws' union then they've filed themselves under 'opportunistic cunts' and there they shall remain for ever more.

still, leaving the paper around is good for winding up my elders....

 

[DotCommunist]

i base the knowledge on geezer books of course.

I base mine on first hand experience of how the cunts behave when you are in thier grasp.

 

[trevhagl]

I base mine on first hand experience of how the cunts behave when you are in thier grasp.

fortunately i have avoided that , i just keep reading in books about some being left alone when it kicks off because they were decent.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

I didn't realise there were no police, prisons or prison guards in a socialist utopia.

WTF is this thread?

 

[DotCommunist]

I didn't realise there were no police, prisons or prison guards in a socialist utopia.

WTF is this thread?

the mechanisms of justice need to not be articulated by uniformed bozos who under any sane view might be called paramilitary. That does not mean that crime would go unpunished or wanton gangsterism would rule. You realise that the police are a relatively recent institution yeah?

How do you think communities got by before the peelers?

 

[Fedayn]

revol might have an interesting line on this.....

 

[TopCat]

I wasn't aware that the POA led the management board for any prison let alone the entirity of HMP service. Isn't the relationship of the POA to managers the same as any other trade union? Managers will argue that it is cash limits and no doubt blame the POA and the wage bill. Shouldn't the arguement be with the managers who run these institutions?

The Governors don't run the prisons, the POA do.