Top 5 referendums you would ike to see

[lewislewis]

Only joking! 5 referenda I hope will happen in my lifetime

1. New confederal arrangement for the British Isles

2. Independence for Wales

3. Independence for Scotland

4. A law-making parliament for Wales (a few years before the independence one)

5. Abolition of the monarchy I guess, although i'm not that bothered.

 

[Poi E]

I won't debate the matter with you on this thread. Start another one on the subject if you like, and I will try to address your concerns.

Oh c'mon. If people are going to put their top 5 then they should be prepared to discuss the choices.

 

[tbaldwin]

Piss off. Untethered brought up "Keep Britain British" or words to that effect. Perhaps you think that sort of thing shouldn't be challenged, given your nationalist impulses. Furthermore, the Irish were never consulted on their future in the 1920's, like how the Palestinians weren't consulted in the same decade.

nope. i dont think it should go unchallenged, but i do think its a pity if you ruin another thread with yet another of your personal disputes.

 

[tbaldwin]

You reckon?! I have yet to see a pay day yet, anywhere I've worked, where people haven't complained about having to pay income tax!

But it's not just income tax, how many other issues would a referendum have disastrous consequences for? How about whether or not we should allow immigrants into the UK? Or how about whether or not we should pay jobseekers allowance? Or whether or not we should have the death penalty?

I'm afraid that most people are selfish and struggle to look beyond what will only effect themselves...

Having seen how the public,voluntary and helath sector waste money, i would worry about anybody who wasnt pissed off about paying so much tax.
But, i think most people are prepared to pay tax as long as it is not wasted so much.

On Immigration, i think the majority of people would be in favour of controlled immigration,not no immigration.

On JSA i reckon most people would be in favour of reforming the benefits system in quite a positive way.
On the death penalty i reckon most people would only favour it in extreme cases, which is fair enough.

And as for being selfish.......Lets hope your right....Cos if people acted in their self interests rather than in the interests of a super rich elite the world would be a much better place.

 

[kyser_soze]

Referenda are a shite way of making policy - most voters can't see beyond their own front gardens, let alone appreciate the ramifications of something that's going to last decades or centuries. I mean fucks sake, how many people would be bothjered, let alone able to make a considered choice about PR? I've seen Australian voting forms, and they'd confuse the hell out of the average semi-literate moron that passes for a British citizen these days. Try explaining the intricacies of the Single Transferable vote to anyone and they'll fall asleep (it was bad enough having to do it in politics and I'm interested in the subject!)

I agree with Cyberrose - the monkeys that get elected to parliament are bad enough, let alone allowing the monkeys that elect them to vote on actual important issues...this is a country that has been obsessed with Maddie Mccann for 6 months remember...

 

[Poi E]

And as for being selfish.......Lets hope your right....Cos if people acted in their self interests rather than in the interests of a super rich elite the world would be a much better place.

Self-interest like cheap booze, petrol and package holidays?

 

[tbaldwin]

Referenda are a shite way of making policy - most voters can't see beyond their own front gardens, let alone appreciate the ramifications of something that's going to last decades or centuries. I mean fucks sake, how many people would be bothjered, let alone able to make a considered choice about PR? I've seen Australian voting forms, and they'd confuse the hell out of the average semi-literate moron that passes for a British citizen these days. Try explaining the intricacies of the Single Transferable vote to anyone and they'll fall asleep (it was bad enough having to do it in politics and I'm interested in the subject!)

I agree with Cyberrose - the monkeys that get elected to parliament are bad enough, let alone allowing the monkeys that elect them to vote on actual important issues...this is a country that has been obsessed with Maddie Mccann for 6 months remember...

You know what they say about people getting more reactionary as they get older.....
Pinochet, Franco,Kyser Soze,

I'm only half joking.
Cos fair play to you.you always say what you think. But if you seriously think that more democracy is a bad thing.....

 

[_angel_]

Having seen how the public,voluntary and helath sector waste money, i would worry about anybody who wasnt pissed off about paying so much tax.
But, i think most people are prepared to pay tax as long as it is not wasted so much.

On Immigration, i think the majority of people would be in favour of controlled immigration,not no immigration.

On JSA i reckon most people would be in favour of reforming the benefits system in quite a positive way.
On the death penalty i reckon most people would only favour it in extreme cases, which is fair enough.

And as for being selfish.......Lets hope your right....Cos if people acted in their self interests rather than in the interests of a super rich elite the world would be a much better place.

Sorry to be pessimistic but I think *most* people would happily swallow the wholesale removal of the welfare state tomorrow and vote in the death penalty also.

Yep most people *are* selfish but they are also being fed the line of a super rich elite: you can't expect to tax them correctly, they might leave the country!! Oh no!!!

 

[CyberRose]

You know what they say about people getting more reactionary as they get older.....
Pinochet, Franco,Kyser Soze,

I'm only half joking.
Cos fair play to you.you always say what you think. But if you seriously think that more democracy is a bad thing.....

How is it democracy? No way in a million years can dictation by Rupert Murdoch ever be considered "democratic" unless you're one of the idiots that read his newspapers...

 

[kyser_soze]

Referanda don't necessarily mean more democracy, since they are liable to be hijacked by idiot populist measures that do more harm then good in the long term.

For example, your bit on taxes:

Having seen how the public,voluntary and helath sector waste money, i would worry about anybody who wasnt pissed off about paying so much tax.
But, i think most people are prepared to pay tax as long as it is not wasted so much.

This is basically what every government since 1945 has said - 'we'll spend your tax money better so you won't have to pay as much'...and how successful has that been? More democracy would be good at a local level - for example, holding local votes on local planning issues instead of it being decided by the DoE (or whatever it's called these days)

A good example of how popular politics can completely fuck a state's revenue base is California - back in the late 70s some bright spark came up with a wheeze called Proposition 21, which basically halved the states tax base, cos it went to a public vote. Good idea about local democracy?

Referenda are a blunt tool that are only really any use on constitutional issues - even something like PR is better left up to a Parliament to decide on, simply because you'll never get the public excited enough about it - they'll be excited afterwards when the realise that they'll finally stand a chance of voting for someone they want, but getting to that point...

So, maybe...

1. Split the Union
2. Renationalise the railways (which has already half happened anyway)

I can't think of any others that couldn't be included in a manifesto - for example, hypothecating taxes I think is a good idea, or having a system whereby people agree to pay X amount in tax, but get to pick where it gets spent fo 5 year periods (e.g. I want 5 p spent on health, 5p on welfare etc etc) - that would also get round the whole 'My taxes are being spent on layabouts/killing Iraqis/whatever and I don't agree with it' business...

 

[tbaldwin]

Kyser. I reckon your wrong about tax. I reckon most people would vote for a far better system than we have now. One where people earning over 50 grand paid more and people earning under 30 grand paid less....

 

[dash_two]

Referenda are a shite way of making policy - most voters can't see beyond their own front gardens, let alone appreciate the ramifications of something that's going to last decades or centuries.

Then again, many people may not devote much thought to a lot of issues because they know there is little chance of them having any say about them.

(Btw, it was Proposition 13, not 21, which expressed the 'taxpayers revolt' in California in the late 1970s, for those interested in learning more about it.)

 

[kyser_soze]

I want to sit down and work out a genuinely progressive tax - starts at £1K, when you pay 1p in the £, and goes up 1p for every K you earn, up to 50K where it stops. No NI, just all tax. Same goes for all other incomes - you pay a maximum of 50%. Those earning super bonuses get to keep all of it once only every 5 years, after that it's 75% on bonus above salary, with share options calculated on the basis of 1 free every 5 times you sell, and that's based on the maximum value of the share (i.e. of you sell 10,000 and pay the tax, then the next 4 years sell 100,000 you still get bollocksed on 75%).

No VAT, and taxation is split 3 ways - national, regional and local, possibly with the personal hypothecated taxes I mention above. I reckon that's pretty fair.

 

[kyser_soze]

Then again, many people may not devote much thought to a lot of issues because they know there is little chance of them having any say about them.

(Btw, it was Proposition 13, not 21, which expressed the 'taxpayers revolt' in California in the late 1970s, for those interested in learning more about it.)

DOH! Sorry bout that...

 

[tbaldwin]

I want to sit down and work out a genuinely progressive tax - starts at £1K, when you pay 1p in the £, and goes up 1p for every K you earn, up to 50K where it stops. No NI, just all tax. Same goes for all other incomes - you pay a maximum of 50%. Those earning super bonuses get to keep all of it once only every 5 years, after that it's 75% on bonus above salary, with share options calculated on the basis of 1 free every 5 times you sell, and that's based on the maximum value of the share (i.e. of you sell 10,000 and pay the tax, then the next 4 years sell 100,000 you still get bollocksed on 75%).

No VAT, and taxation is split 3 ways - national, regional and local, possibly with the personal hypothecated taxes I mention above. I reckon that's pretty fair.

Put it to a vote?

 

[tbaldwin]

Then again, many people may not devote much thought to a lot of issues because they know there is little chance of them having any say about them.

QUOTE]

I think thats a really important point.

 

[nino_savatte]

nope. i dont think it should go unchallenged, but i do think its a pity if you ruin another thread with yet another of your personal disputes.

It isn't a "personal dispute" numbnuts and no one is "ruining" the thread either. Btw, haven't you got a mind of your own?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I want to sit down and work out a genuinely progressive tax - starts at £1K, when you pay 1p in the £, and goes up 1p for every K you earn, up to 50K where it stops. No NI, just all tax. Same goes for all other incomes - you pay a maximum of 50%. Those earning super bonuses get to keep all of it once only every 5 years, after that it's 75% on bonus above salary, with share options calculated on the basis of 1 free every 5 times you sell, and that's based on the maximum value of the share (i.e. of you sell 10,000 and pay the tax, then the next 4 years sell 100,000 you still get bollocksed on 75%).

No VAT, and taxation is split 3 ways - national, regional and local, possibly with the personal hypothecated taxes I mention above. I reckon that's pretty fair.

Now that is an interesting proposition. However I wouldn't want to penalise the person who builds up a manufacturing business as this is actually making things however I would like to penalise speculators. Maybe a tax break for manufactuers and none for speculators? But on the face o fit your system is far more fair than the current system.

 

[kyser_soze]

The other reason referenda are a blunt tool is that you can't actually vote on legislation - you could say 'Renationalise the railways' but how? Framing the question, preparing the legislation behind it...these are all reasons representative democracy exists, simply because the actual machinery of government, the framing of laws, is a ball ache.

So maybe referenda on principles - something like disestablishing the church, or the principle of renationalisation fine, but you still need something behind it to actually make laws...

KJ - yeah, that makes sense. Also I'd offer tax breaks to anyone who could provably show they were donating to local schools, hospitals etc - for example, a local business puts in £10K to a local school, that comes off their tax bill, since it's going direct and not via bureaucracy.

 

[tbaldwin]

The other reason referenda are a blunt tool is that you can't actually vote on legislation - you could say 'Renationalise the railways' but how? Framing the question, preparing the legislation behind it...these are all reasons representative democracy exists, simply because the actual machinery of government, the framing of laws, is a ball ache.

So maybe referenda on principles - something like disestablishing the church, or the principle of renationalisation fine, but you still need something behind it to actually make laws...

KJ - yeah, that makes sense. Also I'd offer tax breaks to anyone who could provably show they were donating to local schools, hospitals etc - for example, a local business puts in £10K to a local school, that comes off their tax bill, since it's going direct and not via bureaucracy.

Some interesting points from you as usual kyser, you sceptic....

I think the more say people get the better. And the more say they get the better their decisions are likely to be.

I really don't agree with people who think that given a chance the majority will vote to hang all the crims and deport anyone who looks a bit tanned....

 

[kyser_soze]

I'm sceptical from working in an industry that convinces people to buy shite with an alarming amount of efficacy. I've always maintained that individual people can be smart and think things through, 1mn people and yu can get them to do anything if you get them wound up enough.

 

[CyberRose]

Some interesting points from you as usual kyser, you sceptic....

I think the more say people get the better. And the more say they get the better their decisions are likely to be.

I really don't agree with people who think that given a chance the majority will vote to hang all the crims and deport anyone who looks a bit tanned....

That's a big assumption and seems to run counter to reality, especially when the topic of immigration comes up...

 

[Yossarian]

1. Keep Britain British.

That's the stupidest idea for a referendum I've ever heard. What the fuck are the alternatives - "Make Britain Swedish"?

 

[tbaldwin]

That's a big assumption and seems to run counter to reality, especially when the topic of immigration comes up...

Its not quite as big an assumption as assuming that the majority will make worse decisions than politicians is it though?

 

[8ball]

That's the stupidest idea for a referendum I've ever heard. What the fuck are the alternatives - "Make Britain Swedish"?

Make Britain Italian?

Nice food, good weather . . .

 

[8ball]

Withdraw from the EU.
Re-instate capital punishment.
Bring back flogging for young offenders.
Bono for World President.
Annexe the Sudetenland.

 

[tbaldwin]

I'm sceptical from working in an industry that convinces people to buy shite with an alarming amount of efficacy. I've always maintained that individual people can be smart and think things through, 1mn people and yu can get them to do anything if you get them wound up enough.

Sadly the advertising industry does have huge power. But i think that given that most people are not totally stupid, referendums would be a really good thing.
The arguement that people are too stupid to take part in decision making is as you know a preety dangerously reactionary one...

 

[untethered]

That's the stupidest idea for a referendum I've ever heard. What the f- are the alternatives - "Make Britain Swedish"?

Multiculturalism.

 

[kyser_soze]

I don't necessarily think they're stupid, just easily manipulated en masse - unless you had some kind of ban on any kind of press coverage of any given issue, something like the EU, death penalty, taxation or immigration you would see the nastier side come out, especially if it was driven by a Murdoch/Dacre inspired terror that voting for it would be the end of civilisation as we know it.

As for people being stupid...well I think there are millions of people out there who don't have a fucking clue about politics or what they're voting for - indeed, if recent stats are anything to go by, 10% at least can't even read the manifesto. Do I think they shouldn't be allowed to vote? In principle no simply because I think that voting requires one to make an informed choice about what you're voting for, but in practice yes - like freedom of speech and banning people from advocating murder and violence my personal feelings about it take 2nd place to the actualité of the situation

 

[Yossarian]

Multiculturalism.

If multiculturalism and 'Britishness' are incompatible, then your stupid 'Keep Britain British' slogan is even dumber because Britain's already a multicultural country, so, by your logic, isn't British.

Maybe Gibraltar might be a better place for you?